It Hurts Me.

[thedivahrrrself]

I can relate, Fire, and thank you for saying it.

"I can handle being invisible. I have coming out to strangers down to an art form. I have a 30 second, two minute, and 20 minute version of my own gender-education/dynamic-education talk that I deliver to strangers, acquaintances, and friends regularly. "

This made me laugh out loud, because I have the same 3 versions, depending on the audience!

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry this happens to you FD! I have had it happen, but not in a long while. The closer I get to 50, the less I am asked to use my cleavage to get things. Not sure if its respect of my age, or that my Butch/Trans friends know better.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It sucks that these particular butches chose to pimp you out for amenities.

It's pretty gross and you should copy that eloquent fuck you that you shared with us mail it so they know not to do that shit with you or ANY woman again!

[JAGG]

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JAGG

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

That's right, if you want to deny who she is, then she should deny who you are.

[Turtle]

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And none of us were born knowing all of this complicated identity business, we learn about it and work through it as we develop into more full wonderful human beings until the day each of us dies…that’s part of what I find so amazing…we keep learning until the moment we die (and maybe even after).

The Planet is wonderful for being a place where we can all mash this stuff around, hearing other ideas, as we figure out what is best for ourselves.

Do I have my moments when I get pissed off or frustrated at other people's unknowingness – yes…and I try to remind myself of the times I have said something dumb or hurtful…I still think nasty things, less often than I used to, but a lot of me moving better in interactions with others has to do with slowing down in my reactions.

I much more appreciate a kind explanation of how I fucked up rather than getting smacked upside the head. I used jump up in people’s shit, but I think the learning and behavior change is more important than the reprimand, so I’ve gone gentle in hope of progress.

I have had friends who would bat their eyelashes to get what they want…or act dumb…or wiggle body parts. I’ve ALWAYS wanted stuff and to be what I consider “boy”…but maybe at different times in my life I have chosen to present as more strongly male and and have been overweight to pre-deflect cis-male judgments, advances, and assumed liberties.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

I give thanks for the learning and for all the ways people have had my back…and I try to be there for other people in the learning and because we all have needed or will need someone to stick up for us.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

[girl_dee]

Sure does make us appreciate people who treat us with respect

at my former job i worked with a ton of men, i got hit on at times, but once i came out i got hit on 10 times as much and not in a good way.

Straight, gay or indifferent disrespect is never ok!

[Rockinonahigh]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with people like this,it's wrong,bad manners and dosent show any type of class act.I promis there are butches who are careing and thoughtful and will treat a lady right.

[Apocalipstic]

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Turtle

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

You've identified the crux of it Turtle. In this community my expectations are different. I expect Butches, boi's and Trans Men to acknowledge and respect my queer gender and sexuality, my identity.

I wrote my friend, whom I respect, and enjoy hanging out with, and let her know I was about to post this, because I believe in transparency in friendships as well as governments. She promptly apologized, and we are good. She wasn't the first, and I doubt she will be the last. And I figured something out about myself. I was finally able to put into words why I felt betrayed.

I chose to share my thoughts in the hope that those of us who participate in this dynamic could have exactly this dicussion. I Know I'm not the only Femme that expects this type of respect. And I suspect there are Femmes who would not have been bothered at all by those statements.

Clarity, clarity is a good thing!

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It sucks that these particular butches chose to pimp you out for amenities.

My thoughts exactly **shakes head**

[Apocalipstic]

My apologies for even suggesting some Butches might now know any better and might appreciate guidance rather than anger.

I should have said people.

I think its good to let people know how we want to be treated rather than just being angry. Usually, when we talk about it we realize that the people who supposedly wronged us did not mean to and did not fully understand our boundaries.

[Mr Nice Guy]

I would never disrespect a woman. I always treat women how I would want to be treated. With kindness, respect and honesty. Oh and niceness.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice Guy

Oh and niceness.

You are such a nice guy

[AtLast]

This is so wrong. And it makes this butch angry too.

[Viola]

I've been thinking more, actually any rules with butch femme is scaring me, cause I've never thought about this before...

All that enter my mind is drawn towards butches and that's it...

Forget rules, who cares... I'm into freedom of thought.

so I'm not going to abide by any rules, I'm just going to be me...

who cares who approach who first or second,

if I want to approach I will and or if a butch wants to approach be my guest,

I've really put a lot of thought into this, thread and still am - not sure why.

Um, I never ever been to this type of place that you describe, I've never been to a femme butch hang out offline before.

but still, I'm to the point of saying, I'm me and who cares about rules.

I'm me.

[macele]

i'm sure it can work both ways. a butch can be offensive with words, and a femme can also. a femme can ask a butch do something that has been generated from the hetero female brain.

if i seem defensive, maybe i am a little lol. i just don't think this is a butch problem. but rather a person problem. and i personally am not fond of looking to other people to guide me/correct me in regards to behaviour. if i am in need of someone to tell me how to act, i have person problem issues lol.

all is understood that it is needed to tell someone if they say things that are offensive. indeed. and that's what makes a good topic, ... learning.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

Agree...

...so are saying it's not proper to pick someone up for a date on a horse? I may take issue with this. She gets good gas mileage...