It Hurts Me.

[JAGG]

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JAGG

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

That's right, if you want to deny who she is, then she should deny who you are.

[Turtle]

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And none of us were born knowing all of this complicated identity business, we learn about it and work through it as we develop into more full wonderful human beings until the day each of us dies…that’s part of what I find so amazing…we keep learning until the moment we die (and maybe even after).

The Planet is wonderful for being a place where we can all mash this stuff around, hearing other ideas, as we figure out what is best for ourselves.

Do I have my moments when I get pissed off or frustrated at other people's unknowingness – yes…and I try to remind myself of the times I have said something dumb or hurtful…I still think nasty things, less often than I used to, but a lot of me moving better in interactions with others has to do with slowing down in my reactions.

I much more appreciate a kind explanation of how I fucked up rather than getting smacked upside the head. I used jump up in people’s shit, but I think the learning and behavior change is more important than the reprimand, so I’ve gone gentle in hope of progress.

I have had friends who would bat their eyelashes to get what they want…or act dumb…or wiggle body parts. I’ve ALWAYS wanted stuff and to be what I consider “boy”…but maybe at different times in my life I have chosen to present as more strongly male and and have been overweight to pre-deflect cis-male judgments, advances, and assumed liberties.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

I give thanks for the learning and for all the ways people have had my back…and I try to be there for other people in the learning and because we all have needed or will need someone to stick up for us.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

[girl_dee]

Sure does make us appreciate people who treat us with respect

at my former job i worked with a ton of men, i got hit on at times, but once i came out i got hit on 10 times as much and not in a good way.

Straight, gay or indifferent disrespect is never ok!

[Rockinonahigh]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with people like this,it's wrong,bad manners and dosent show any type of class act.I promis there are butches who are careing and thoughtful and will treat a lady right.

[Apocalipstic]

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

LMAO, yeah...one would hope.
and no one does that to me any more.
Not sure if its my age, or just that they know better now after trying it once.

I totally agree that common courtesy should be expected, but not everyone learned it growing up and must be taught how to act now. (around Me, if they want to be around Me lol)

[Jess]

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Turtle

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

You've identified the crux of it Turtle. In this community my expectations are different. I expect Butches, boi's and Trans Men to acknowledge and respect my queer gender and sexuality, my identity.

I wrote my friend, whom I respect, and enjoy hanging out with, and let her know I was about to post this, because I believe in transparency in friendships as well as governments. She promptly apologized, and we are good. She wasn't the first, and I doubt she will be the last. And I figured something out about myself. I was finally able to put into words why I felt betrayed.

I chose to share my thoughts in the hope that those of us who participate in this dynamic could have exactly this dicussion. I Know I'm not the only Femme that expects this type of respect. And I suspect there are Femmes who would not have been bothered at all by those statements.

Clarity, clarity is a good thing!