only another butch would understand

Jett · 11-15-2009, 09:23 AM

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

P.S good post Jess, Tommi

Mister Bent · 11-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (male and female ID) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

Great post Metro, and this is really where I am with the whole issue, as well. The stereotypes are out there, I think they're fairly well documented and don't need reiteration here. I admire how you respectfully addressed that - because being dismissive isn't a one way street and is a poor way to start off a thread that's supposed to be for us.

I am in complete agreement with, "Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention."

In my opinion, one (and only one) of the essential elements of butch is masculinity - female masculinity, masculine women, male identified trans-masculine - however we choose to further define it. Masculinity does not belong solely to cis-gendered men, transmen, stone butches - it belongs to all of us. THAT, in my mind, is our bonding element.

When I saw the title of this thread, I didn't think about passing gas, tools, football or any of those things - because none of these is unique to the butch experience. Plenty of femmes or other - ID'ed folks are adept with their hands, love beer and can change their oil (though I admit I wish I could rebuild an engine). What I hope to see here are those stories of the common formative experiences and the day to day trials.

BullDog · 11-15-2009, 10:09 AM

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Random · 11-15-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Metropolis,

I'm sorry..

Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*

Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..

Jet · 11-15-2009, 11:07 AM

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

BullDog · 11-15-2009, 11:20 AM

Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.

Jett · 11-15-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

It's understandable, being that fresh... we'll be here when you feel like it... I'm sure there's more than a few of us who've been through similar.

In the mean time hope you stick around and just enjoy the discussions, comradery and general what-not.

Peace to you too

Metro

(Ms Cyn... no apoligies needed, and thx for your clarification)

Dean Thoreau · 11-15-2009, 02:39 PM

jess, can I give your phone number to the 6 diva's? you can be there super hero...at the fixing plunging stuff you look better in the blue tights!.

11-15-2009, 09:23 AM	#1
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes. Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor" Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention. Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?) We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly. Metro P.S good post Jess, Tommi __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus Last edited by Jett; 11-15-2009 at 09:41 AM.

11-15-2009, 02:39 PM	#8
Dean Thoreau Member How Do You Identify?: Ftm - Male- exfemale Preferred Pronoun?: He’s Him Relationship Status: Has a gf Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Philadelphia pa Posts: 889 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 251 Thanked 762 Times in 219 Posts Rep Power: 4529750	jess, can I give your phone number to the 6 diva's? you can be there super hero...at the fixing plunging stuff you look better in the blue tights!. __________________ Dean Thoreau

11-15-2009, 10:09 AM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well. I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

11-15-2009, 11:07 AM	#5
Jet Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: .. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: .. Posts: 3,471 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 292 Thanked 2,647 Times in 1,293 Posts Rep Power: 0	I wish I could post what another butch would understand. But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least. Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

11-15-2009, 11:20 AM	#6
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.