Changing last names

[Cin]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to .

I have nothing but respect for you.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to .

I have nothing but respect for you.

MT,

Not upsetting at all. You are always respectful.

One of my issues is always explaining.

I always had to justify myself as a kid and frequently find myself doing that as an adult <<<<<<just like here

I try not to do that when I feel done with something.

I can with the best of them.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know someone will jump in to say : "there is no shaming going on here".

I know what I feel.

I'm sorry you feel personally shamed. I know that when that comes up for me, ti's cause there's a trigger of past crap there. I don't believe I have shamed anyone in my questions. I don't think there is any shame in someone IDing as old school, liking heteronormative rituals and taking them as their own, with this one stipulation: as long as they are conscious that this is what they are doing

Wanna be heteronormative? bo-yaa. knock yourself out. but own it. I'd like to add I did give props to the one poster who came in and did this. when I read she was fully aware of it and she liked it, I thought "ok, fine with me. glad to know you are happy with doing that and aware of it." thumbs up.

I have a few heteronormative things that I personally find a turn on. and I'm happy to own them to whomever *asks*

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

so when I ask a social science type question (why do we do X, where does this come from, are we cognisant of this) about us, and get "you are judging me" from people, I would really like it if they would actually show me where I personally have judged someone, so I can either a) clear that error of communication up or b) understand how that could be shaming.

so, if you feel like naming the shaming comments, it's much more helpful to me as a person than someone coming in and saying "I'm being shamed" and .... that's kinda it. I can't do anything about my behaviour if it's not pointed at. It's like someone saying "I was hurt when you were shitty to me today!" and that's it. Um. ok.

So, it would be really helpful if you could show me anything I've said you found shaming.

[Apocalipstic]

I grew up around the double last name thing and like it.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I don't think there is any shame in someone IDing as old school, liking heteronormative rituals and taking them as their own, with this one stipulation: as long as they are conscious that this is what they are doing

Wanna be heteronormative? bo-yaa. knock yourself out. but own it. I'd like to add I did give props to the one poster who came in and did this. when I read she was fully aware of it and she liked it, I thought "ok, fine with me. glad to know you are happy with doing that and aware of it." thumbs up.

I have a few heteronormative things that I personally find a turn on. and I'm happy to own them to whomever *asks*

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

I am not saying there is any shame in it but I don’t id as old school. I don’t like heteronormative rituals. I don’t take them as my own. So I will not be conscious that this is what I am doing, because it’s not. As a matter of fact I have put in enough time examining and unpacking to know this is absolutely not what I am doing. Yet I could cheerfully give Truly Scrumptious my name. And I don't have to knock myself out or own it.

I am not making the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I am supposed to be doing, nor am I bastardizing the true butch-femme dance. And I still will give my name to my wife if that is what she wants. I don’t think I have to admit to liking heteronormative rituals or iding as old school in order to give my wife my name. I have to look at it, examine what it means, understand what is behind the rituals, but I don’t have to be invested in the actual heteronormative ritual. I strongly object to that assumption. The patriarchy doesn’t own masculinity, marriage or naming. These things can be appropriated and made in another image. I just have to be cognizant of what I am doing and why. If I believed that I had to identify with heteronormative rituals to have what I want and to be who I am, then I might as well just hand over masculinity to the patriarchy and be done with it. It doesn’t make sense. If I can do woman the way I want regardless of heteronormative rituals and patriarchal rules of gender, then I can marry who I chose and give them my name if I want and still not be aping man/woman relationships.

Maybe I'm missing something but I seriously don't understand why you would say this.

[Dude]

I'm wondering about how not sharing a last name will
affect hospital visitation stuff. If I do have a spouse in
the hospital , I pity the fool who wants me to prove that we
are really married.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

When I was coming up, at the very beginning when I heard about and was exposed to the butch-femme dynamic, it wasn't about gender roles or norms. Also, while I am not butch and can't say what privately went on among butches, there didn't seem to be a lot of competition around who was more masculine. Same with femmes re femininity. There was competition around who was more good looking and who had a partner and whose partner was happy or straying. That sort of thing.

Butches would posture, but it was in the service of impressing a girl. It wasn't an identity thing. When I was coming up, a butch was cool if she 1) had a girl who was crazy about her and 2) had a reputation for being a really good lover (therefore was popular among femmes). It was sometimes very Rico Suave -- I put a spell on women -- that kind of thing. Femmes would roll their eyes, but lick their lips.

Being known for being able to please a woman -- that was the rep butches sought after. That was almost the core of butch identity. If you asked someone what made her butch, after being surprised at the question, I bet most of the time she would have answered because she could make a woman come back for more -- beg for more. That kind of thing. There was a lot of arrogance and trash talk about that. Very little about markers of masculine gender presentation.

The dance was more about sex than it was about gender. I don't think it's just because gender roles were a given or because people lacked the language to talk about it back then.

Our history is not well-documented, and we project our current preoccupations onto the past without much thought. But I recall. I was not femme when I met some of these women. Just a baby dyke. But I recall.

From the stories I heard, there wasn't a lot of policing of gender or how people ran their relationships. Everyone struggled, and everyone was at risk to one extent or another.

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Martina

...

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

...

Hey Martina great post. I excerpted this one section because "serious economic and physical threats" still exist many butch/femme folks. It feels silly to say that; it's such a given. I must have misunderstood something but still, here's my comment. Scout

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Martina

When I was coming up, at the very beginning when I heard about and was exposed to the butch-femme dynamic, it wasn't about gender roles or norms.

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

That’s not how I remember it.

I grew up in a poor and working class neighborhood with the usual variety of society’s throwaways. In the projects it was all families on welfare but the surrounding tenements were a mish mash of fringe. I learned a lot about alternative life styles. I learned a lot about a lot of things really. I was always a watcher and I processed what I saw in depth even as a kid. I saw queens tormented and beaten for fun. I watched homeless guys get beaten for fun. I watched drunks get rolled and beaten for fun and profit. I watched junkies on the nod get left alone. I watched bull daggers get tormented and sometimes beaten, but much differently than queens. Kind of like one would poke a junk yard dog, carefully and always with a back up plan. There was this one butch everyone talked about how tough she was, how she could kick any guy’s ass. They despised her because she was different, queer and masculine presenting, but there was also reverence and grudging respect because she was dangerous and tough. She was impressive looking that’s for sure.

I identified mightily with the neighborhood butches called bull daggers or diesel dykes. I wanted to grow up to be like them. They were tough and they lived like men. As I got older I watched the butch/femme couples in the neighborhood. They may not have said gender roles or norms but they sure as shit acted them out. Butches didn’t cook and do laundry or go grocery shopping and they sure as hell did not do housework. They drank in bars, worked manual labor and fixed their own cars. And when their femmes got home from working in factories they took care of the house and their butches. When I got old enough to get away with drinking in bars I had occasion to see butch-femme dynamics a little closer and it sure looked like heteronormative behavior to me. And without any of the accompanying examination or soul searching to water it down that we see nowadays. No nod to gender equality or angst over misogyny. How I processed what I saw led me to deny that I was a butch who loved femmes. I often dated and/or partnered with women who were attracted to female masculinity, but like me they did not identify with the butch femme dynamic. I refused the dance. I thought it was sexist and misogynistic and not at all in line with the person I wanted to be. It was a long road home. And I’m happy to have arrived a proud butch woman married to a proud femme woman. It’s our dance and sometimes I lead and sometimes I follow. And I’m happy either way. I do not live the butch femme relationships I grew up seeing, I don’t share the ideals of the butches I knew and listened to as a kid. They may not have spoken about gender roles or gender norms but they lived them. And they did so unapologetically without any thought to what they were perpetuating. So personally I’m glad we do some naval gazing nowadays. At least there are alternatives to the hyper masculinity I saw growing up. There may have been then too, but I never saw it and nobody talked about stuff like that. So I’m glad we talk about it now.

Masculinity has always been revered. It didn’t just happen with gender conversations. Roles were always a part of the butch femme dynamic, at least in my part of the world. They weren't thought about they were just done, just lived. But now we have an awareness of what it means to play that way. There are many of us who don’t think femmes equal hetero women and butches equal men. Just like I'm sure there were many who never thought that way when I was growing up either. But nobody talked about that. It was assumed to be exactly how it looked. Examining stuff is empowering. Masculinity has been separated from men and patriarchy. Femmes parse femininity in their own image. It’s not perfect but it’s better.