"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Medusa]

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it

No, no....I think we all did.....and like all good and wonderful things, it has evolved.

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Medusa

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").
It's my read of it, I own it

that's how I read it too. I'm butch and always will be. It doesn't matter what anyone else calls themselves.

[julieisafemme]

I JUST learned about the term femme last year and that I was one. Luckily I am in my 40s so I am ok with not being part of the hip youth culture of today. I find that I am antiquated in many ways. I'm ok with that.

[Darth Denkay]

Reading through the thread (and the similar one on the other site) one thing stands out to me - the part semantics plays in this discussion. As we know, choice of words can be really powerful. One word that I've seen (on which thread I can't recall) is that the younger generation is re-writing/re-defining butch-femme. When written that way, yeah, I get defensive. Those words, to me, suggest change that more or less does away with the prior terms, identities. In my mind, it implies that butch-femme is no longer and we now will use these other terms, the culture will change, and those of us who hold to the butch-femme community will be left behind. I don't think that's what's happening - the butch-femme community as we know it is too strong to be erased. Younger folks may use different terms, and certainly the culture will change, but I think it's more of incorporating the new rather than replacing the old with the new. Does that distinction make sense?

Several have shared good resources. Another I would add is "Boots of leather, slippers of gold: The history of a lesbian community". The organized lesbian community happened starting in the 30s and 40s, and it WAS butch-femme. I expect lesbians who are opposed to butch-femme would be quite upset to know that, but lesbian history (as an organized community) began with us. Since that time I'm sure the culture has changed, and it will continue to. However, that doesn't mean the history will be erased (which is where I have my freak-out) and I do believe we will always have a place here. I don't see the shift being as drastic as when butch-femme went underground because lesbian feminists saw us as the evil lesbian version of the patriarchy. And if we think about it, at that time lesbians wanted to see us gone - and while we went underground, we didn't go away. I think the current shift is far less drastic, and we won't be going anywhere. Our culture may expand, but we're not leaving.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Interesting. I'm black and I identify myself as a butch. I don't know what other term I would use. Stud doesn't particularly resonate with me and, despite my wife saying that I'm a "force of nature", aggressive doesn't feel accurate to me. This is ME, of course, I'm not talking about other black women. Now, I'm no longer a 'younger person' being middle-aged but I wonder if, in another 20 years, when the young folks now are my age will it once again be 'antiquated'. I remember when I was in my twenties, butch femme was antiquated and we were all 'beyond labels'. The refrain of my generation was "I don't believe in labels" which, to no great surprise, always disappeared as soon as the words "look at that cute butch (or femme) over there" and every head would turn and if it was a butch, no one was looking at the woman in the dress, heels with make-up.

Sometimes, when I hear that "X does not resonate with POC" I am moved to wonder "so, am I not a woman of color..." but that's a different conversation entirely.

Cheers
Aj