Empathy

[Runner]

In my relationships whether it is partner, friends or family empathy is something that I consider important. I think most people do. Anyone who really cares about anyone is most likely to be quite tuned into how their loved ones are feeling but it probably varies from person to person quite how tuned in they are and if they are able to recognise when something may be on their mind even when it's not obvious.

Some people are talkers, they discuss issues they have on a regular basis and don't pretend everything is ok when it's not - when they have something on their mind they need to discuss it with people they trust, that's probably healthy right?

I trust my own instinct more than anyone, I'm not saying that this is the right way to go but I generally mull things over in my mind and make a decision. Sometimes I put it out for discussion to people I consider closest but very very rarely. My thinking on this is that I'm logical, without trying to sound arrogant I trust my own opinion and I don't want to worry people when I don't need to and it's dealt with. It's genuinely worked for me all of my life. I've dealt with any problems I've had emotional, financial etc. and I have to say I'm generally happy with my life, there's nothing in the last few years in my personal life that I can honestly say have phased me or caused me sleepless nights.

My family on the other had is very different. Amongst other things my sister has been going through a messy divorce for the past 3 years. I can tell within 10 seconds on the phone how she is feeling and feel sick to my stomach with worry. We are constantly in contact, very close and she relies on me for advice that I give as best I can but not sure it's always right. At the same time my brother is going through the aftermath of the same with teenage children who are not dealing with it very well and my mother who is in her 70s needs support by discussing aspects of that which she hears from my brother.

You know with the credit crunch and all I've been lucky enough to hold onto my job and generally I'm happy with my lot although it's not perfect I appreciate I'm luckier than most and I'm happy with my lot.

I'm sorry it took this long to get to the crux of the thread but I suppose my question is - empathy is a great thing but can you have too much? People genuinely sometimes cannot read someone but even as a child I've always been very aware of how anyone close to me is feeling.

At this point I feel that my own life nearly becomes obsolete.

Am I selfish to say that I I feel overwhelmed sometimes?

[Gráinne]

I feel like the Empath character on Star Trek, who didn't have a voice of her own but reflected everyone else's feelings. I also learned very early on how to be a people-pleaser and put everyone else first. Someone else's crisis trumped my need for down time.

I'm generally very quiet and a listener more than a talker, so talkers tend to seek me out. I was also raised in a family where, when you had a problem, you had two choices: If it had a solution, you solved it and got on with things. If it didn't have a solution, you adapted and changed yourself, and got on with things. Either way, you didn't "bother" people with your problems.

I don't think the issue is necessarily too much empathy-Deity knows we need a lot-but balance. I don't like to lean on people or ask for help, even friends, and I've had friends tell me that this can make them feel unneeded or that I come across as cold and aloof, without issues. On the other hand, you don't want to keep going on and on about problems or you're no fun to be around. I'm striving for that balance between intimacy, asking for help, and independence. I've also had to learn when to say "I'm not feeling up to a lot of heavy stuff; maybe we can talk about light subjects and deal with problems later".

[thedivahrrrself]

As a fellow empathetic person, I can say the following from my experience:

1. Don't rely solely on your empathetic feelings. Sometimes you have to take people at face value, despite what you can feel coming from them.

2. Don't expect anyone to react to you the same way. This one has gotten me in trouble a BILLION times. "Why doesn't he/she know that I am sad? Can't they tell by the look on my face/my posture/the fact that I'm super quiet/my sullen tone of voice?" NO! No, they cannot. You MUST state your feelings. This is not easy. It kinda sucks, actually. Because once I state my feelings, I'm responsible for them. I can no longer pretend I'm not mad/sad/scared. But people tend to respond to your feelings once you state them. That also takes away my ability to make them out to be the asshole in the situation, because they should have known that their action/inaction/statements hurt my feelings.

3. Reach out. We're the worst people in the world about trying to deal with things on our own. Other people problems weigh heavily on us -- we can feel the weight of their burdens -- and we don't want to put our burdens on anyone. But most people aren't that way,and our problems barely affect them outside of giving them the opportunity to give a little advice or feel good about themselves for being a good friend. Trust the people you love with your feelings and problems. It's not easy, but it's vital to any relationship making it. Your partners and friends want to know that you trust them, and they want to see you vulnerable, so that they can feel comfortable being vulnerable themselves. You have to show that side of you that you're used to hiding, or every relationship you have will fail.

These lessons were hard for me to learn, and I still find myself repeating old mistakes. But what I've found is that all the weight I feel from other people's problems was partially because I was projecting my own issues on them too. Once you start to open up to others, you'll find that their feelings and issues don't affect you quite so much, though you'll always be empathetic.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Runner

Some people are talkers, they discuss issues they have on a regular basis and don't pretend everything is ok when it's not - when they have something on their mind they need to discuss it with people they trust, that's probably healthy right?

I'm sorry it took this long to get to the crux of the thread but I suppose my question is - empathy is a great thing but can you have too much? People genuinely sometimes cannot read someone but even as a child I've always been very aware of how anyone close to me is feeling.

At this point I feel that my own life nearly becomes obsolete.

Am I selfish to say that I I feel overwhelmed sometimes?

I'm a talker and a listener. I do a lot of healing work with spirits and it tends to be about listening with body and soul and releasing them back into The Source or into EarthMother.
Discussing is always better. Do it while alive and you won't need help passing over.
Empathy is generated via the action of oxytocin. It plays out in many ways. Elephants, horses, dogs, bears, etc. use oxytocin in the same way as humans. Remember the Elephant Whisperer who died recently in London and the herd of elephants that he worked with in Africa preformed the death ritual that elephants do within an hour of his death? Oxytocin.
Oxytocin also works in the brain as "mirror neurons" meaning that those who are empathic will mirror the behaviors of those they bond with energetically and simulate the same sensations in the empath's own body.
Giving yourself space is vitally important to your homeostasis. Because you feel what others feel, many will like to dump with you. They feel heard (which is what we all want, to be understood). Love and respect yourself by holding space for you, setting limits when you need to. You can also learn grounding and shielding techniques if you are actively spiritual like that.
Be well

[Ginger]

Mariamma wrote:

Giving yourself space is vitally important to your homeostasis. Because you feel what others feel, many will like to dump with you. They feel heard (which is what we all want, to be understood). Love and respect yourself by holding space for you, setting limits when you need to.


I took in a sharp breath of air when I read this.

I'm always told what a good listener I am, and it's true—but I have a hard time not becoming like a sponge for other people's words, and sometimes I feel saturated and lose my own voice.

Likewise—and I think this comes from the same place—on the rare times when a thoughtful, focused person draws me out, I get wound up and can't stop. It's like I'm afraid it will be the last time I'm ever listened to.

A highly regulated childhood put some of the anxiety in place that has resulted in these behaviors, but I don't blame those early years; I blame myself and my reluctance to regulate my interactions in a healthier way, a reluctance based on the fear that my empathy is in large part, what keeps my interactions going.

I think it's my physical and intellectual energy that first attracts people to me, and I'm not talking about lovers, but all people. Then, it's my empathy that makes them want to stay close. It also enables me to write, in my fine arts life and in my commercial writing, in which I interview strangers and construct a story about them. It's the reason I sometimes blurt out truths about people I barely know, things they seem stunned by, observations that come from empathy and make them latch on to me—but I want to do the latching, too. I want to be noticed and heard.

That's why I love the Listening Thread. It isn't that I need so badly for others to listen to me; I need to listen to myself. If I don't listen to myself, why should anyone else?

This might sound odd but even as a poet I don't write about myself, or not often. I'm so drawn to the dynamics of the world, the texture of the world, I can't wrest my focus off that, long enough to tell my own story. Turning that much empathy inward feels overwhelming, but I've been working on that one.

Like most people who have a lot of empathy, I'm keenly aware of others and how they are feeling, and it's not that I can't converse—I love conversation. I'm not a shy or socially awkward person; in fact I consider myself a high-functioning introvert who is often mistaken as being buoyant and outgoing.

If I weren't so empathetic, I wouldn't see people so clearly—which is both good and bad. At first, they love me for seeing them in a deeper way, feeling what they're feeling. But I also see things they'd rather keep invisible, and sometimes that makes a person feel exposed. I'm learning to be more careful, more quiet about what I see, sometimes.

And I'm learning to set limits, and say, It's my turn. Like now, here I am; Me, Me, Me. Feeling what is me.

You seem to understand these things so well, Mariamma, and your biochemical take on emotions and behavior is fascinating to me.

[*Anya*]

Many people confuse empathy with sympathy.

In counseling theory, they are not synonymous.

Sympathy focuses on sharing or experiencing another person's bad news, sadness or feelings. When we are sympathetic, we are feeling sorry for another.

Empathy is sharing the good, as well as the bad. It can be good or bad news or feelings and understanding them.

It is being able to put oneself in the shoes of another to understand those but not feeling sorry for them or necessarily agreeing with them.

It is the ability to understand someone else's point of view.

In an individual with an Antisocial Personality Disorder, they lack empathy and this ability to understand someone else's internal experience.

An empath is something else entirely. The definition I found is that they are psychically able to "tune into" others. This is not an area I have either professional or personal knowlege so will leave explanations to others.

[macele]

i may be way off the subject here. but when i think of people that are good at listening to someone else's problems, and they give good advice ... "fix" problems, ... they seem to be almost too much involved in the other persons life.

when problems come their way, it's the same. totally into themselves. not saying that's bad. but they tend to disappear, somewhat.

there's always a chance of doing something too much. balance/moderation is a must. but too much understanding someone else's feelings? i don't think so. but i'm one that thinks we should always consider another's feelings.

i've often thought of empathy in relation to depression/mental illness.

great post, runner.

[*Anya*]

You are not off base macele. Sometimes people veer off of the sympathy train into co-dependence and emeshment.

That's when they disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

I took in a sharp breath of air when I read this.

I'm always told what a good listener I am, and it's true—but I have a hard time not becoming like a sponge for other people's words, and sometimes I feel saturated and lose my own voice.

I think it's my physical and intellectual energy that first attracts people to me, and I'm not talking about lovers, but all people. Then, it's my empathy that makes them want to stay close. It also enables me to write, in my fine arts life and in my commercial writing, in which I interview strangers and construct a story about them. It's the reason I sometimes blurt out truths about people I barely know, things they seem stunned by, observations that come from empathy and make them latch on to me—but I want to do the latching, too. I want to be noticed and heard.


This might sound odd but even as a poet I don't write about myself, or not often. I'm so drawn to the dynamics of the world, the texture of the world, I can't wrest my focus off that, long enough to tell my own story. Turning that much empathy inward feels overwhelming, but I've been working on that one.

Like most people who have a lot of empathy, I'm keenly aware of others and how they are feeling, and it's not that I can't converse—I love conversation. I'm not a shy or socially awkward person; in fact I consider myself a high-functioning introvert who is often mistaken as being buoyant and outgoing.

If I weren't so empathetic, I wouldn't see people so clearly—which is both good and bad. At first, they love me for seeing them in a deeper way, feeling what they're feeling. But I also see things they'd rather keep invisible, and sometimes that makes a person feel exposed. I'm learning to be more careful, more quiet about what I see, sometimes.

And I'm learning to set limits, and say, It's my turn. Like now, here I am; Me, Me, Me. Feeling what is me.

You seem to understand these things so well, Mariamma, and your biochemical take on emotions and behavior is fascinating to me.

There's lots of science behind why you feel the way you (we actually) do. People with naturally high oxytocin will see others with high O and instantly bond with others with high O. You start to trust instantly. If you give someone O (it's usually inhaled and absorbed thru the mucosa), they will trust others at more, be willing to share more, are more inclined to loan $$$. Autistic people when given O will have less autistic symptoms.

It does back-fire for people though. Don't lie to me if you are within my Ki-field. I will feel it and speak your truth. Lots of men hate that :P They expect me to be a loving and silent mother to them. Psych!

The highest amount you will have during life is at a birth. Mom and baby are overwhelmed with it, usually the whole room is taken with it. Men cry and hug strangers, etc. After birth comes orgasm then massage/hugs, dance/yoga, bonding with others with high O (including dogs, horses, etc. it's how animal therapy works for autistic, ADHD/ADD people) and on down the line. If you aim for O, you can simulate more, if not generate more.

It's kind of awesome. Vasopressin is molecularly similar to O and is known to turn grumpy old men into kinder, gentler, happier people who do unexpected things like forgive or apologize. It also helps with releasing anxiety when other anti-anxiety meds do not work. V and O are peptide threads, about 9 amino acids long and are 2 amino acids difference.

Thank you for your kind words. You honor me.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

You are not off base macele. Sometimes people veer off of the sympathy train into co-dependence and emeshment.

That's when they disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves.

Hmmmm....interesting.

I was reading and thinking about this thread and felt like there was another side to this I wanted to raise and didn't know how....right up until Anya hit the nail on the head.

Being raised by and with a pair of angry narcissists, I learned "empathy" early....not in a good way, but as a means of self defense. If I could read what was coming, who was in what mood, and know what would appease....then I was safer. Not safe, but safer.

It's a hard thing to unlearn...feeling like I need to supply all of what everyone wants and needs, place my feelings and needs beneath theirs, etc. I'm learning, and doing better all the time....but that "disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves"....oh hell yeah.

Thanks Anya.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Being raised by and with a pair of angry narcissists, I learned "empathy" early....not in a good way, but as a means of self defense. If I could read what was coming, who was in what mood, and know what would appease....then I was safer. Not safe, but safer.

It's a hard thing to unlearn...feeling like I need to supply all of what everyone wants and needs, place my feelings and needs beneath theirs, etc. I'm learning, and doing better all the time....but that "disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves"....oh hell yeah.

I think that in the same way we have to set boundaries with others in relation to us, we have to set boundaries with ourselves in relation to others.

We have to have some sort of healthy stopping point before taking on others' problems or always putting others before us.

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hmmmm....interesting.

I was reading and thinking about this thread and felt like there was another side to this I wanted to raise and didn't know how....right up until Anya hit the nail on the head.

Being raised by and with a pair of angry narcissists, I learned "empathy" early....not in a good way, but as a means of self defense. If I could read what was coming, who was in what mood, and know what would appease....then I was safer. Not safe, but safer.

Jo, I totally get where you're coming from. My mom was a textbook Narcissist, and empathy was a complete defense mechanism for me. Her anger was like wildfire in the wind; you never knew where or when it would strike. To this day, when she is upset, even from a long distance, I feel my stomach knot up.

Originally Posted by JustJo

It's a hard thing to unlearn...feeling like I need to supply all of what everyone wants and needs, place my feelings and needs beneath theirs, etc. I'm learning, and doing better all the time....but that "disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves"....oh hell yeah.

Thanks Anya.

I second all this! And it is very hard to unlearn, but absolutely necessary, as I am finding out, to having any kind of healthy relationship.



To all of us trying to do away with old habits....

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hmmmm....interesting.

I was reading and thinking about this thread and felt like there was another side to this I wanted to raise and didn't know how....right up until Anya hit the nail on the head.

Being raised by and with a pair of angry narcissists, I learned "empathy" early....not in a good way, but as a means of self defense. If I could read what was coming, who was in what mood, and know what would appease....then I was safer. Not safe, but safer.

It's a hard thing to unlearn...feeling like I need to supply all of what everyone wants and needs, place my feelings and needs beneath theirs, etc. I'm learning, and doing better all the time....but that "disappear and lose perspective, as well as themselves"....oh hell yeah.

Thanks Anya.

What you learned as a kid Jo—wow that feels so familiar. It reminds me of what I was hearing and how I felt when I went to my first Al Anon meeting, and the children of alcoholics were talking about that very thing.

Empathy as self defense. Ouch. That is definitely me sometimes.

[RockOn]

Runner, thank you for this topic. Great idea for a discussion. It is almost midnight and must get to bed soon.

I will be back .
Thanks again.
Brock