Ask a trans person!

[The Oopster]

I'm typing from my blackberry
Until I get my computer back.

Question...

I am a contract designer looking to go full time. Since
I.M starting T now I want apply at And be accepted at companies with diversity policies. I'm thinking of submitting

My resume
Portfolio
Summary of experience
And....
A letter to HR addressing my transition under the company
Diversity policy.

Should I include the letter at the. onset of applying?

What bathroom do I use?

Etc.

I wouldn't come out at an interview.

I guess the confusion lies on what you meant by onset of applying? For me the that means at the interview or even in a cover letter.

From your last comment i wonder if you mean at the beginning of employment or onset of a job offer. Which to me is different. I think most jobs at some matter of time it does have to be addressed and when and if I get a new job if the issue needs to be addressed it will be at the beginning.

I say "need be" because i'm further along in the transition process. Currently my name and sex aren't changed so I would need to address it and would want to address it right away because it's easier for people to learn of me one way then to learn one thing and have to change it. Some of it also depends on type of job. I've transitioned in jobs where I'm not in an office setting and i'm not around the same people all the time. When i'm in the office the bathroom is unisex and in my previous job I had to use the bathroom before or after picking up clients so the bathroom wasn't an issue. In these jobs i really haven't addressed the issue, although the one employer did for me. Yet i still had customers that read me as female and again it wasn't worth it to correct not atleast at that time.

I also say "need be" because once everything matches up I don't see a reason to address it unless again it has to be for some odd reason.

[Jet]

I had a lengthy post that I lost on my phone

Bottom line

I'm in the creatve field where company image is everything

I'm in an at will state where you can get fired for any reason

This aint gonna fly no matter how you cut it

[Dylan]

I had a lengthy post that I lost on my phone

Bottom line

I'm in the creatve field where company image is everything

I'm in an at will state where you can get fired for any reason

This aint gonna fly no matter how you cut it

I'm also confused. I thought you were talking about sending a letter with your resume and cover letter. That's how I read your posts.

Just because you're in an at will state doesn't mean they can necessarily fire you for being trans. It means, you need to research what city, county, and state ordinances your place of work has to follow.

It also means you're going to have to keep a LOT of documentation. You are really really really going to want ANY conversations you have with coworkers, higher ups, etc in email. Trust me on this one.

IF you live in a city/county/state with a gender identity ordinance, I highly highly suggest finding out how much the people who monitor that ordinance (in Austin, it's called the Human Rights Commission/and EEOC) KNOW about gender identity. We DO have an ordinance in Austin, but the people who monitor that sort of thing here are completely ignorant as to what it means. When I filed my complaint after being fired for being trans, they kept lumping me into the gay arena (which there was never an issue at my company with being gay...the issue didn't arise until I came out as trans). The EEOC people couldn't grasp what the problem was. Even after I filled out the paperwork, they changed the wording in my paperwork to reflect a queer issue...which it just wasn't. I had to go back three times, and I finally had to take an advocate with me to speak for me, so I had a witness.

You are going to have to arm yourself with knowledge, and you're going to (probably) have to educate some people. Sad but true.

The best thing you can do though is FIND OUT FIRST what your rights are. The second best thing you can do is DOCUMENT every single interaction with an email. For realz. Sad but true again.


Dylan

[Jet]

I want to write a letter to HR

And probably after the interview if I'm strong candidate

I don't currently pass as male
I feel addressing this early on is important because of the nature of my field; this is at a corporate level where the image of the company and its employees is everything.

If I adress this early on I risk losing a position

If I address after I'm hired
I risk losing job

This is an "at will" state
Where they can fire you over anything.

My transition won't go unnoticed.

[Thinker]

Starting your medical transition while in the midst of any other big thing can be pretty rough. Again, if you don't *have* to deal with a job search right now then maybe you could hold off until you are passing.

If both must happen at the same time, then I really think you're going to have to go about it in the way that feels right and comfortable to you. What Dylan said about educating yourself in advance is critical. After that, you have to do what you think is best. There isn't one right way to do it.

Good luck.

[Dylan]

I want to write a letter to HR

And probably after the interview if I'm strong candidate

I don't currently pass as male
I feel addressing this early on is important because of the nature of my field; this is at a corporate level where the image of the company and its employees is everything.

If I adress this early on I risk losing a position

If I address after I'm hired
I risk losing job

This is an "at will" state
Where they can fire you over anything.

My transition won't go unnoticed.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I feel as though you're taking it as argument

You're going to do what you're going to do and what makes you comfortable

I'm speaking from my own experience in all of this as someone who lost their job in an at will state and as someone who looked for a job for over three years in an at will state. I've written the letter and sent it with a cover letter and resume...no response at ALL. NONE. And that was from a company who stated "Transgendered people [among others] encouraged to apply", and I've come out at interviews at companies who stated they were 'trans-friendly'. They mostly liked that I was 'gay'. They didn't know what to do when I was trans, and I didn't get hired.

I'm confused about this letter. You say, "I want to write a letter to HR" and "And probably after the interview"

So, I'm confused. You want to write a letter to HR. I get the impression based on the above that you want to write a letter before you've even interviewed with the company. Am I correct in that?

And then, am I correct in that you also plan on addressing it after you've interviewed? So, that would mean HR has two letters from you about being trans?

Have you ever sent a letter to HR telling them you were queer? Before you even interviewed? Did you ever send two letters to HR telling them you were queer?

At will does not mean that companies are allowed to just throw some things out the window. I mean, even in at will states, companies are not allowed to fire you for being a woman, being POC, being disabled, being Jewish, etc. Sure we all know they'll find another reason if they really want to fire you for that, but they're not 'allowed' to tell you, "You can't work here, because of your sex, religion, etc".

This is why you have to research your particular city/state/county ordinances. Many companies have no clue what city ordinances are in place. The more information YOU have, the better off you're going to be. You're going to have a much stronger chance of protecting yourself if you arm yourself with knowledge.

Personally, I've found interviewing during transition incredibly difficult. But that's just me. And the way I would handle it now has greatly changed from the way I've handled it in the past (partly because I've already done all the 'coming out' at interviews, and all it got me was laughed at, sideways looks, fearful looks, and uncomfortable awkwardness...it yielded no job).

I also get that you don't pass as male. I get that. And that makes it even harder. Personally, and this is completely based on experience, I would start telling yourself you DO pass, because you ARE a man...and I would dress and act like it in an interview. I mean, I don't know what you're planning on wearing to an interview, but I'd do a suit and tie. If YOU are in an interview, and YOU aren't acting the part, it's going to make everything weird. The interviewer is going to be looking for YOU for guidance on how to act. If you're waivering or uncertain, it's going to make the whole situation uncomfortable. If YOU don't 'believe' you're a man, no one else is going to believe you're a man.

Two/Three years ago, I was in exactly your same position, and an older wiser transguy gave me the same advice. I thought he was completely full of shit ("How can I go in there in a suit and tie when I don't pass?" is what I asked myself), and it really pissed me off. One thing I've found after more and more interviews is that yes, 'passing' was more about attitude than it was about T. I mean, if you're going to tell me you're a man, I would expect a man to show up in a suit and tie for a corporate interview. It's what the 'rule books' say a man wears to a corporate interview. If you're going to tell me you're a man, and you're going to show up in something less than a suit and tie, I'm going to think you're confused...which is going to confuse me. I'm also not going to give you the job, because you didn't show up in the proper attire, and if you can't show up for an interview in 'proper' attire, what's to say you'll show up for work in the 'proper attire'? Your confusion is going to make me confused, and I'm not going to know how to deal with you, and I'm not going to hire you, because I'm going to be uncomfortable. Sad but true. (I'm also not saying I agree with any of this, but it's the way it is in most of America).

Show up in a suit and tie, and you might be surprised how many people never look past that suit and tie and just read you as male for no other reason. Seriously, I have been incredibly mystified at times. People are lazy. I don't know what name you use on your resume, but if you're using your male name, and the company calls expecting a man, you're much better off if you don't 'throw them off'. When people get confused, they get scared, and when they get scared, they don't hire you.

It's binary, and it's complete bullshit, but it's corporate america and people like nice, neat packages. Again, it's complete bullshit, but it's the way it is.
And NO ONE is going to go out and educate themselves on trans issues just so you can have a job. I don't mean that in a harsh way, but it's true. It's a lot easier to just toss out your resume and find another one than it is for people to educate themselves and a whole company on trans issues.

Another reason I wouldn't say anything in an interview or before hand is because HR has to be mindful of covering the company's ass...they're NOT going to want to hire anyone they perceive as being a 'nuisance'. Contrary to popular belief, HR is NOT their for the benefit of the employees...HR is there to protect the company. When it comes down to you or the company, HR is going with the company. Transpeople have the potential to start a whirlwind of shit at companies...not only with health insurance, but also with coworkers and lawsuits. NO HR dept is going to take on a (what they perceive as) possible liability/lawsuit. And if you're already bombarding them with a letter (or two) (read: making an issue out it), it's going to be blindingly apparent to them that you're a possible liability on a number of fronts.

No one's going to educate themselves on trans issues if there's a 'normal' easy candidate available...and in this economy, there are plenty of cis candidates with whom no one has to navigate pronouns/bathrooms/health insurance/lawsuits/name-calling/etc.

You're a man. Walk in there like a man and get a job.


Dylan

P.S. I also like Koop's advice about interview for jobs you don't necessarily want before you go in for the interview you DO want. I wish I'd have thought of that when I was still looking for a job. It's a brilliant idea for anyone, but especially so in this instance.

[Jet]

Ill know more after tomorrow

[Thinker]

Another reason I wouldn't say anything in an interview or before hand is because HR has to be mindful of covering the company's ass...they're NOT going to want to hire anyone they perceive as being a 'nuisance'. Contrary to popular belief, HR is NOT their for the benefit of the employees...HR is there to protect the company. When it comes down to you or the company, HR is going with the company. Transpeople have the potential to start a whirlwind of shit at companies...not only with health insurance, but also with coworkers and lawsuits. NO HR dept is going to take on a (what they perceive as) possible liability/lawsuit. And if you're already bombarding them with a letter (or two) (read: making an issue out it), it's going to be blindingly apparent to them that you're a possible liability on a number of fronts.

This is so very true. Good advice.


Your whole post was spot on, Dylan. Good stuff.

[Jet]

“The city codes of Atlanta and Decatur, however, prohibit discrimination in employment based on gender identity and sexual orientation, and Dekalb County ordinances prohibit discrimination in public employment based on “non-merit factors,” which could be interpreted to include gender identity” (from GPAC’s GenderLaw Guide

[Jet]

http://www.megafamilyproject.org/informed/trans.html

Link for Mega project in Georgia

[Jet]

Today was my first injection

[Jet]

Thanks dudes,
For your responses and reps today

J

[Thinker]

Today was my first injection

*two thumbs up*

Good luck with all of it, Parker.

[Jet]

*two thumbs up*

Good luck with all of it, Parker.

Thank you.

[Linus]

FYI for American trans individuals: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/16362/breaking-blend-exclusive-state-department-issues-gender-change-policy-for-passport-applications

This bodes well.

[CamBAMF]

I personally also want to thank you for starting this thread Linus. I have been going through alot lately when it comes to questioning My gender, and after going to an FTM group meeting at the local GLBT community center this past Tuesday I feel that I am more sure about alot of things than I was before. I sat among eight FTM's and listened to their struggles, their coming out stories, how they feel now and felt before about their change and even though most of them were on T and have been for awhile I felt Myself nodding and identifying with each of them.

I guess I have a few questions that I will start out with, since I know that we have all started somewhere. I'll begin with just a few basic ones:

1) When did you begin feeling like you were different?

2) Did you always know that you should have been born the opposite sex, or did that come abit later though you always knew you were different?

3) When did you decide to come out, and how did you come out?


I am out as trans (FTM) to certain people that I know online as well as those at the FTM group I attended but not to anyone else. A big part of Me wants to come out to family and friends so I can finally outright be who I am on the inside, but there is still that part of Me that is scared to do so. I am really looking to just connect with other FTM's (as well as MTF's) and relate to those who have gone through the journey, or perhaps those like Me really just beginning it, so that I can know that I'm not alone.


I totally feel you. I came out as trans 3 or 4 years ago, and I was scared too... The whole thing was so perminant. I literally only started transitioning in October, 2009.

1) my earliest trans memory was at three, I was taking a bath, and I guess I looked really sad. My mom asked what was wrong and I told her god had made a mistake, that I was suppose to be a boy. However, I always knew I was different, I was just never able to actually put my finger on what it was about me that was different. I guess I already had the answer at 3 years old and just never knew it. :)

2) I always knew I was different, and I had a lot of issues with gender roles. But I had no words. To my knowledge there was nothing to discribe me. I was just a wierd butch dyke. It didnt fit exactly who I was but it was the closest I could get. That was until college. I met a MTF in my community college GLBT group named Acosha. and she changed my life. her story was crude and hard to believe. she was thrown out of her home, and did back ally botox. but when she talked about how she felt I connected to her right away. It was how I felt, only opposite genders. I didnt like that. Im not gonna lie, I thought trans people were wierd and I didnt want to be like that. I tried not to. but then my social worker basically said there was no way around it, and i saw a senior gender specialist, and i guess i worked my way into a whole new community.

3) It was about a year after I met Acosha so around 18 years old. I told my mom first, and my mom blurted it out to my dad. my mom is good to get the word around the family. My dads family doesnt really talk about these things, and so we just never discussed it, but my moms family asked a whole lot of questions. I told my closest friends, and everyone was cool with it. not a single person abandoned me or disowned me- to my surprise.

[CamBAMF]

I have a question for the transguys. I'm NOT asking anyone but transguys.

I'd like to know what y'all think about a transguy who is read as male, who wants to be read as male, who has had top surgery, and who is on hormones...but yet uses the women's restroom (on occasion), and who gets ticked off when women in the restroom get upset that he's in there.


Thanks,
Dylan

I think hes scared. I mean I was scared too, girlfriend at the time had to push me to use the guys bathroom. I started doing so, but only if it was empty and I had a switch blade on me. I've ease up a bit since the T and I also have a MANGO product called a Pack-N-Pee...

The reality is trans hatred is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) portion of hate crimes committed against the LGBT. Statistics show that when a hate crime is committed agaisnt the Trans is typically physical, and very often fatal. and we're not talking simple either... like decapatated, burned, beaten, stabbed forty time, dragged by a vehicle kinda deaths. now most often this happens to MTF transgenders (maybe because there is more of them, or because it is less socially accepted) You can read the names, country, and how they died on Trans Rememberance website. These hate-crime more often then not take place in gendered areas (bathrooms, lockerooms, etc.)

So for a FTM its far easier, in my opinion, to reason with females. Worst case senrio T makes it easier to fight off a female also. But there is less fear of rape and/or death in a female bathroom

[Linus]

So for a FTM its far easier, in my opinion, to reason with females. Worst case senrio T makes it easier to fight off a female also. But there is less fear of rape and/or death in a female bathroom

Cam, I think I will have to disagree with you on this paragraph. I don't know if it is easier to "reason with females". I think like most people, if someone is open they will be easier to reason with (female, male or purple-people eater). Additionally, from what I have seen/heard most females, if a male is found in the bathroom will call on big <insert male figure> to come in and either attempt to enforce "gender bathroom mores" or drag the offending male out. Don't forget, as well, that some women can kick your ass. Just because you're a guy doesn't mean they are weak.

Lastly, the idea that there is less fear of rape and/or death in the female bathroom -- do you mean this for the FTM or the woman? I think I can understand it from an FTMs point of view but from a woman's point of view, based on the stuff that is happening here in America, there is this long standing idea that the bathroom is safe as long as it's all women. If a man's there, he's there only to rape/kill. And since, what seems to be a large segment of America, believes that MTFs are not women but men.. well, then them being there is to rape/kill or perv on kids.

[Liam]

I think hes scared. I mean I was scared too, girlfriend at the time had to push me to use the guys bathroom. I started doing so, but only if it was empty and I had a switch blade on me. I've ease up a bit since the T and I also have a MANGO product called a Pack-N-Pee...

The reality is trans hatred is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) portion of hate crimes committed against the LGBT. Statistics show that when a hate crime is committed agaisnt the Trans is typically physical, and very often fatal. and we're not talking simple either... like decapatated, burned, beaten, stabbed forty time, dragged by a vehicle kinda deaths. now most often this happens to MTF transgenders (maybe because there is more of them, or because it is less socially accepted) You can read the names, country, and how they died on Trans Rememberance website. These hate-crime more often then not take place in gendered areas (bathrooms, lockerooms, etc.)

So for a FTM its far easier, in my opinion, to reason with females. Worst case senrio T makes it easier to fight off a female also. But there is less fear of rape and/or death in a female bathroom

I won't dispute your fear—it is after all, yours, but I must confess that I am far more comfortable in the men's room, than I am in the women's.

[CamBAMF]

1. Have you found that people expect you to be more in control of your reactions/emotions to things? I get excited about some things, and I'm noticing there's a reprimand accompanied with getting too excited.

2. Have you found that (if you're read as straight) more people assume it's acceptable to make homophobic jokes and comments in your presence?



1) Yea I totally get that all the time. Actually, it's funny only because that seems to give people the idea that I'm a gay man.

2) I don't get this, but that could be that I only really hang with people who are lesbian/gay, people who knew me before my transition, and other social work majors. I'm very weary about who I'm hanging out with. (I can have some serisou anxiety)

[Jet]

Grant,

I don't know the reason for his using it. I just heard the story about how he gave the lady (who complained) a bunch of shit and laughed at her.

Personally, I find it completely disrespectful, and honestly, I kind of wanted to kick his ass. I mean, A) I don't understand why you would pound your fist about being male only to then use the ladies' room and B) I don't understand why you would intentionally make women uncomfortable.

And frankly, it pisses me off. I don't know exactly WHY it pisses me off, but it does. I mean, I can't imagine any other man I would *allow* to use the women's room, and then give women shit when they get upset that there's a man in the restroom. And I also don't understand WHY you would want to use the women's restroom EXCEPT to start shit.


Dylan

P.S. It pisses me off in the same way butches who claim they don't 'clean', because that's 'women's work', but then refuse to 'take out the trash', because they're women too...you know what I mean?

I wonder if its just not accepting whats happening in being male and transiting..the comfort level may not be there yet.

[Soon]

It may not seem possible to those of us who gaze longingly at Canada's progressive laws for LGBT citizens, but transgender folks are not explicitly protected by anti-discrimination legislation there. That may be about to change.

A private member’s bill (http://www.straight.com/article-328736/vancouver/burnaby-ndp-mp-bill-siksays-transgender-rights-bill-passes-second-reading)seeking human-rights protection for transgender and transsexual Canadians passed second reading in the House of Commons on June 8. The third time might be the charm for Bill Siksay, the NDP MP for Burnaby-Douglas, who has tabled similar bills twice before, none of which have made it this far in the legislative process. “This is a big, historic step,” Siksay told the Straight in a phone interview from Ottawa. “It’s an indication that there is interest and support for this.” Bill C-389 seeks to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and Criminal Code to add gender identity and gender expression as prohibited grounds for discrimination. Siksay, the NDP’s critic for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender issues, said there wasn’t any “outright” opposition to the bill, which was supported by Liberal, NDP, and Bloc Québécois MPs.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government says the trans rights act is "redundant and that trans people are already protected under the grounds of sex and disability in the Canadian Human Rights Act." They also complain that the bill doesn't define gender identity and gender expression. The bill now moves to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights for "detailed consideration."

[Dylan]

These hate-crime more often then not take place in gendered areas (bathrooms, lockerooms, etc.)

So for a FTM its far easier, in my opinion, to reason with females. Worst case senrio T makes it easier to fight off a female also. But there is less fear of rape and/or death in a female bathroom

I agree with many things you've said here, but I disagree that most often hate crimes take place in gendered areas. This would mean most hate crimes against MTFs take place in women's restrooms and locker rooms, and I just don't buy that, because most hate crimes against trans-individuals (as I hate hate hate the terms 'The Trans' and 'transgenders') are not perpetrated by women.

Most hate crimes committed against the trans community are perpetrated by men against MTFs (and there's not more MTFs, the actual guesstimate is closer to 50/50) in public areas like on the street, or they were followed home, etc.

Also, I personally, don't find it any easier to "reason with females". I don't even really know what you mean there, honestly. I've always had the absolute worst time in women's restrooms, and I can't imagine ever going back in there. There's no 'reasoning' with anyone when you've scared them...especially when it comes to women being in fear of a man in the restroom. But I don't even know how I *would* 'reason' with a woman in the restroom that I *belong* there at this point. And if I *were* to end up in the women's restroom, I really wouldn't be 'fighting them off'...because I just don't belong there, and they have a very valid reason to protect themselves. But this also means that MTFs would have an easier time 'fighting off' women (if it were women committing most of the violent crimes against MTFs) in the restroom, being that MTFs have 'had all those years sharing their bodies with testosterone'. But as we all know, women aren't going to stand in the restroom and 'fight off' an intruder. Instead, they're going to go find a security guard, police officer, etc (as many of us here can attest to having had done to us when women think 'there's a man in the bathroom).

And again, I don't want to dispute your fear, because it's yours, but I wish I'd have started using the men's farrrrrrrrrr earlier than I did. If I'd had known how much less crap I was in for in the men's room, I'd have done it 20 years ago. I'm wayyyyyyyyyyy less apprehensive about using the men's room, because no one even looks at you. I've only had one experience where any man ever even bothered to look at me, and he was just a chatty old guy who sidled up to the urinal next to me and started carrying on about his day. Even when I didn't pass, men didn't say a word. For me, personally, I am MUCH less 'afraid' in the men's room. For ME, I DO think being able to use the urinal helps a lot with any apprehension.


My Thoughts,
Dylan

ETA: I find it incredibly privileged and just...gross...that an FTM would use the women's restroom if they pass and live as male.

P.P.S. I also find it attention seeking

[Rufusboi]

I've been using the men's bathroom for about 9 years now. And it was mostly because of the bad reactions I received in the women's bathroom. I was getting hassled too much, confronted, grabbed, had security called on me (I was in line for the bathroom and the security guard reached and grabbed for me to pull me out of line). I don't have problems in the men's bathroom. Men don't make eye contact. It took me a lot of years to get the nerve up to use the men's bathroom because I thought I would have problems in there and get hurt. Once I finally got the nerve up and learned that men don't even look up, then I started using the men's room exclusively.

I think women are very protective of the bathroom space. As Melissa says, its more of an event in there. Women are talking, changing their kid's diapers, taking their kid's to the bathroom, putting on make up, brushing hair, checking clothes.

Men just pee and leave. I don't use the urinals. Every men's room has a stall with a door and a lock.

Rufus

[TCB]

Originally Posted by Dylan
I have a question for the transguys. I'm NOT asking anyone but transguys.

I'd like to know what y'all think about a transguy who is read as male, who wants to be read as male, who has had top surgery, and who is on hormones...but yet uses the women's restroom (on occasion), and who gets ticked off when women in the restroom get upset that he's in there.


Thanks,
Dylan

I couldn't find the original post, so I just had to copy and paste the question.
To be quite honest, it's beyond me why any trans male (particularly that far into transition) would want to use the women's restroom. It defeats the purpose of everything he is doing if you ask me.
It actually frustrates me and is very disrespectful. Unless he feels he has some sense of privilege, that on it's own is very concerning.

Not to mention, why in the hell would you look to create a problem like that?
You can be damn sure those women in the restroom will not like him being there. UNDERSTANDABLY
It's beyond me.

[The Oopster]

I have to say I think I used a woman's restroom once out of desperation. We were at a gay bar and the men's bathroom had a urinal and a stall without a door. I wasn't equipped to pee standing up so I used the woman's. Fortunately I was still on the cusp at the time of passing and I also just used it way before the night got started and just made sure I didn't have to pee til we wer out of there.

Another time I was somewhere and the men's was out of order and I really had to go ... but just went and looked for another one. At this pt I just wouldn't be comfortable using the woman's no matter what unless it is a single locked door and the men's is broken and I really really really have to go.

Now I've also learned how to pee sitting down in a matter that no one would be the wiser. Some of the stalls i frequent don't lock well so I have learned how to sit so no one can tell. I need to come up with a new stp .... I have one piece ... just need to get the medical tubing next ... then figure out the best way to contrive the thingy. Right now I'm just lazy ... I drive a lot so try to get a 2fer when I can.

[Jet]

I think id have to have more than peach fuzz to use the men;s room.

I've been using the men's bathroom for about 9 years now. And it was mostly because of the bad reactions I received in the women's bathroom. I was getting hassled too much, confronted, grabbed, had security called on me (I was in line for the bathroom and the security guard reached and grabbed for me to pull me out of line). I don't have problems in the men's bathroom. Men don't make eye contact. It took me a lot of years to get the nerve up to use the men's bathroom because I thought I would have problems in there and get hurt. Once I finally got the nerve up and learned that men don't even look up, then I started using the men's room exclusively.

I think women are very protective of the bathroom space. As Melissa says, its more of an event in there. Women are talking, changing their kid's diapers, taking their kid's to the bathroom, putting on make up, brushing hair, checking clothes.

Men just pee and leave. I don't use the urinals. Every men's room has a stall with a door and a lock.

Rufus

[CamBAMF]

Hey Everyone!

I have a question; and it may be a little silly.

So, I never (and I mean never) went to Gynaecolist. Once, before I even knew I was trans, I had a breast exam done by a family doctor, who also went to make sure all the parts down below were still in working condition. Fortunately I had my period and that exam never took place.

Very lately I've been thinking/ worring that maybe I should see one. I mean I am a sexually active trans-guy. I rarely use any kind of protection. If for nothing else, I should be seeing someone for a base exam.

1) If you're pre-op (top and bottom) do you still need to see a doctor for your genital regions.
2)If so how often are you suppose to go? Do you still have to get like anual mamograms
3)What kind of doctor are you suppose to see? (I mean I feel like they'll totally laugh at me if I walk into an OBGYN's office)

[CamBAMF]

Cam, I think I will have to disagree with you on this paragraph. I don't know if it is easier to "reason with females". I think like most people, if someone is open they will be easier to reason with (female, male or purple-people eater). Additionally, from what I have seen/heard most females, if a male is found in the bathroom will call on big <insert male figure> to come in and either attempt to enforce "gender bathroom mores" or drag the offending male out. Don't forget, as well, that some women can kick your ass. Just because you're a guy doesn't mean they are weak.

Lastly, the idea that there is less fear of rape and/or death in the female bathroom -- do you mean this for the FTM or the woman? I think I can understand it from an FTMs point of view but from a woman's point of view, based on the stuff that is happening here in America, there is this long standing idea that the bathroom is safe as long as it's all women. If a man's there, he's there only to rape/kill. And since, what seems to be a large segment of America, believes that MTFs are not women but men.. well, then them being there is to rape/kill or perv on kids.

Good Point! :)

[Dylan]

I think id have to have more than peach fuzz to use the men;s room.

So, does that mean you're going to wait until you have a full beard before you stop using the women's restroom?


Dylan

[Dylan]

1) If you're pre-op (top and bottom) do you still need to see a doctor for your genital regions.
2)If so how often are you suppose to go? Do you still have to get like anual mamograms
3)What kind of doctor are you suppose to see? (I mean I feel like they'll totally laugh at me if I walk into an OBGYN's office)

1. Yes. Some doctors will require you see one before they prescribe T

2. Supposedly, you should go yearly. You don't have to have annual mammograms until you're over 40 (unless you have a family history)

3. Try Planned Parenthood. Or you can ask your endo (whomever you use for your T prescription) to recommend someone or to do it.


Dylan

[CamBAMF]

I agree with many things you've said here, but I disagree that most often hate crimes take place in gendered areas. This would mean most hate crimes against MTFs take place in women's restrooms and locker rooms, and I just don't buy that, because most hate crimes against trans-individuals (as I hate hate hate the terms 'The Trans' and 'transgenders') are not perpetrated by women.

Most hate crimes committed against the trans community are perpetrated by men against MTFs (and there's not more MTFs, the actual guesstimate is closer to 50/50) in public areas like on the street, or they were followed home, etc.

Also, I personally, don't find it any easier to "reason with females". I don't even really know what you mean there, honestly. I've always had the absolute worst time in women's restrooms, and I can't imagine ever going back in there. There's no 'reasoning' with anyone when you've scared them...especially when it comes to women being in fear of a man in the restroom. But I don't even know how I *would* 'reason' with a woman in the restroom that I *belong* there at this point. And if I *were* to end up in the women's restroom, I really wouldn't be 'fighting them off'...because I just don't belong there, and they have a very valid reason to protect themselves. But this also means that MTFs would have an easier time 'fighting off' women (if it were women committing most of the violent crimes against MTFs) in the restroom, being that MTFs have 'had all those years sharing their bodies with testosterone'. But as we all know, women aren't going to stand in the restroom and 'fight off' an intruder. Instead, they're going to go find a security guard, police officer, etc (as many of us here can attest to having had done to us when women think 'there's a man in the bathroom).

And again, I don't want to dispute your fear, because it's yours, but I wish I'd have started using the men's farrrrrrrrrr earlier than I did. If I'd had known how much less crap I was in for in the men's room, I'd have done it 20 years ago. I'm wayyyyyyyyyyy less apprehensive about using the men's room, because no one even looks at you. I've only had one experience where any man ever even bothered to look at me, and he was just a chatty old guy who sidled up to the urinal next to me and started carrying on about his day. Even when I didn't pass, men didn't say a word. For me, personally, I am MUCH less 'afraid' in the men's room. For ME, I DO think being able to use the urinal helps a lot with any apprehension.


My Thoughts,
Dylan

ETA: I find it incredibly privileged and just...gross...that an FTM would use the women's restroom if they pass and live as male.

P.P.S. I also find it attention seeking




I can understand your rational to the hate crime statment- To be honest the statistic was written in a pamphlet I received at a trans confrence at Rutgers New Brunswick years ago. Frankly U.S. estimates are so are so mess up its hard to believe any of it. But what your saying about gendered areas seems logical. So I withdraw my previous statment.

MTF being a higher number, that didn't come from the US. In actuality it came from the netherlands. The reason the statistic came out of the netherlands is because they are more socially accepting of transgendered individuals (more accepting not totally accepting- so there is a margin of error) The idea being, that there people are more will to say they are transitioning since there isnt such a social stigma. the last estimate I heard was 1 out of 12000 males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM... but I did also hear that gap was closing. and these estimates were taken when I was like 8 years old.

As for the actual being easier with women... I really must live on another planet... Ive been mistaken as a guy Long before testosterone also. And yes some times a girl would point out I was in the wrong bathroom, and I would calmly explain that I was actually biologically female. Never did a girl shudder in fear when I entered the bathroom or run screaming from the room. And there was never a reason for a girl to protect herself when I entered the room. Not once has a security guard or cop ever come knocking on my stall trying to remove me. Never was I shouted at or forcibly removed. Either I just ran into the nicest females in the world or everyone else has the worst luck. Now Im not saying I would ever go back to the female bathrooms. Actually to be honset I'm most comfortable in family bathrooms, best way to go in my opinion- but I digress.

Okay I'll admit the fighting off statment was incredibly sexist. But hypotetically speaking biological females have a disadvantage to biological males- why? because biological male have more speed and strength (more muscles) for hunting dating back to our primitive cave man ansestors, while famale were equipted with extra fatty tissue and the ability to give birth. When on hormones, we in essense exchange what nature gave us for the opposite version (as best as possible since not everything changes). Based on simple deduction, I am probably strong then my equal female counterpart. Now, Im not saying I would EVER over power a girl whether I can or cant. And Im not saying there arent exceptions or that girls are powerless- Im positive that some of my girl friends would beat my ass in for even suggesting such a thing. Im saying T alone would give you the upper hand on a girl over a biological guy if trouble were to start. I never had trouble start. This is all hypotetical. and your right men are most often the perps, and MTF are most often the victims... but there are always execption...

lol. Yea I have a lot of fear. Anxiety issue up the wazoo.

but what I really think is, we are argueing over a toilet here. C'mon. a toilet. seriously. If he doesnt do it out of fear, and does it for the pink motif. Who cares. Is he hurting someone? If not then I dont see the issue. If he does it for shock value, to get a rise out of people, for attention then everyone who decided to make a big deal out of this just handed him everything he wanted... No I dont agree with doing things for attention, but I know attention seekers love it when they are the center of the debate...

I'm just saying.

[Linus]

the last estimate I heard was 1 out of 12000 males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM... but I did also hear that gap was closing. and these estimates were taken when I was like 8 years old.

Uh... you mean those the other, right? Otherwise, that means that FTMs (males) outnumber MTFs (Females).



Okay I'll admit the fighting off statment was incredibly sexist.

And that really, to me, was the only issue.

but what I really think is, we are argueing over a toilet here. C'mon. a toilet. seriously. If he doesnt do it out of fear, and does it for the pink motif. Who cares. Is he hurting someone? If not then I dont see the issue. If he does it for shock value, to get a rise out of people, for attention then everyone who decided to make a big deal out of this just handed him everything he wanted... No I dont agree with doing things for attention, but I know attention seekers love it when they are the center of the debate...

I'm just saying.


But it does present problems for FTMs. One of the challenges is that I'm viewed as having privilege and then wanting to be part of women's only situations (which a bathroom/locker room fit into). (never mind what the Christian Right uses this stuff for). It, to me, smacks of abusing privilege and beyond.

[Linus]

I have to say I think I used a woman's restroom once out of desperation. We were at a gay bar and the men's bathroom had a urinal and a stall without a door. I wasn't equipped to pee standing up so I used the woman's. Fortunately I was still on the cusp at the time of passing and I also just used it way before the night got started and just made sure I didn't have to pee til we wer out of there.

Another time I was somewhere and the men's was out of order and I really had to go ... but just went and looked for another one. At this pt I just wouldn't be comfortable using the woman's no matter what unless it is a single locked door and the men's is broken and I really really really have to go.

Now I've also learned how to pee sitting down in a matter that no one would be the wiser. Some of the stalls i frequent don't lock well so I have learned how to sit so no one can tell. I need to come up with a new stp .... I have one piece ... just need to get the medical tubing next ... then figure out the best way to contrive the thingy. Right now I'm just lazy ... I drive a lot so try to get a 2fer when I can.

I really need to work on that part. I've tried it a couple of times only end up with my leg wet. I think my biggest concern is the strength of the stream being too forceful and thus overflowing.

[Dylan]

but what I really think is, we are argueing over a toilet here. C'mon. a toilet. seriously. If he doesnt do it out of fear, and does it for the pink motif. Who cares. Is he hurting someone? If not then I dont see the issue. If he does it for shock value, to get a rise out of people, for attention then everyone who decided to make a big deal out of this just handed him everything he wanted... No I dont agree with doing things for attention, but I know attention seekers love it when they are the center of the debate...

I'm just saying.

While I disagree with a few other things you've said, this is the largest area in which I disagree with you.

Yeah, it's a bathroom.

Can you tell me, do you think it's ok for cismen to use the women's room too? I mean, should any man be able to use the women's room simply because he 'likes the motif'?

When One decides they're a man...they're a man. They don't get to live with one foot on this side, and one foot on that side. It's incredibly sexist and privileged (in my opinion) to say, "I want that, but I don't want that part of that". You don't get to make women feel uncomfortable, because YOU (general...not personal) are afraid of a bathroom. You (again general, not personal) don't get to soak up the privilege of being male, then trample on women-only space. There's things that suck about being male. You don't get to take the good parts and toss out the bad parts. That's incredibly privileged...and in this case sexist.

Scaring women for your own personal benefit is privileged and sexist.

Making women feel uncomfortable for your own person benefit is privileged and sexist.

Expecting women to accommodate and cater to YOUR (general) fears, wants, needs, etc is the HILT of sexist and privileged.

Expecting women to make room for YOU and coddle YOU is...sexist and privileged

If you're a man, you're a man, and you don't get 'special' privileges/access/whatever, simply because you were born in the wrong body.

ESPECIALLY considering the men's room is actually safer (although, definitely not cleaner).

I just can't imagine allowing ANY other man special entrance into the women's room (the exception being small children, or men with disabilities who need help, and that help tends to be *women*).

Perhaps you have gotten lucky, because I know I've had security called on me a number of times. I've even had a security officer crawl under the stall door to open it and remove me (while I was in the middle of doin' mahhh business) from the restroom. I've had women freak out. I've been lead to the men's room more times than I can even count.

To be quite honest, I truly believe those who make the biggest noise about the men's room, haven't even used the men's room. Because men don't even *look* at you in the men's room.

And to use the women's room, because you just want attention is to me just a complete abuse of privilege...especially when coupled with the statistics and fear of women and rape. It's taking advantage, and it's just the HILT of sexism and an abuse of power. As if men are just allowed to go wherever they want and do whatever they want, and women are just supposed to accommodate and 'understand' and then even CODDLE and soothe the fear of men. It's gross and abusive.

If you're a man, you don't take advantage. You don't make women feel uncomfortable, so you can feel 'safer', or 'get attention', or 'be more comfortable'.

I mean, if you want attention, men will definitely give it to you. If you don't feel safe in X space, find another space. If you want to feel comforted and soothed, you don't just *take* that from women or women's space.

I just cannot imagine another man doing any of these things, or using any of these excuses without having his ass handed to him.


Dylan

P.S. All the 'yous' in this post are completely general...I get tired of saying 'One', because sometimes it comes off sounding sarcastic

[Dylan]

I really need to work on that part. I've tried it a couple of times only end up with my leg wet. I think my biggest concern is the strength of the stream being too forceful and thus overflowing.

The medicine spoon.

Most awesome thing ever.


Definitely Takes Practice, But It's Well Worth The Investment,
Dylan

[The Oopster]

The medicine spoon.

Most awesome thing ever.


Definitely Takes Practice, But It's Well Worth The Investment,
Dylan

http://www.whenyagottago.com/products/TravelMate.html

I really like this ...much easier to use because the spoon is more custom for our bodies...

i use to get the u-tube on transitional male but nick doesn't seem to be selling just that any more and also is having health issue so isn't do the stud.

I'm hoping to make my own u-tube using the above product but just need to find the medical tubing and the right glues and then the stuff to put it together.

[Dylan]

http://www.whenyagottago.com/products/TravelMate.html

I really like this ...much easier to use because the spoon is more custom for our bodies...

i use to get the u-tube on transitional male but nick doesn't seem to be selling just that any more and also is having health issue so isn't do the stud.

I'm hoping to make my own u-tube using the above product but just need to find the medical tubing and the right glues and then the stuff to put it together.

I don't see what the difference is between this and the medicine spoon?

Not trying to be funny, but I don't understand why I would pay nine dollars when I can get the same thing at Target for free?

I mean, I don't see how this would be any easier to use either. It's still going to take a helluva lot of practice to learn to position this thing properly.


Am I Missing Something?,
Dylan...could have easily missed something

P.S. you can get latex tubing at Home Depot or Lowes. If you use that particular spoon (that you linked to), you can just put the tubing over the end...you don't need glue...and run it through your packer. Should take about 3 seconds. (you can use a dab of caulking if you're really concerned)

[SassyLeo]

This is not really a question, but I wanted to share something that made me :thumbsup:

My employer is VERY progressive. And I knew that already.

Today while searching through our policy database, I randomly came across the policy on Transgender and Transitioning.

I can't post it all here due to compliance, but I can give you snapshots:

-advocate for diversity-
-maintain a workplace environment that embraces diversity-
-every employee makes a unique contribution-
-fairness and equity ...defining characteristics of the workplace environment-
-discrimination/harassment will not be tolerated or condoned-

-managing an empolyee who is transitioning= ...demonstrate an understanding, sensitive approach to his/her needs and concerns-

It just made me appreciate my employer even more...

[chefhmboyrd]

no men don't look at each other in the bathroom unless they are cruising.

and i don't have a pack and pee, i just squat over the bowl. Lots of men sit down to pee, and if you go in the mens room and there are no stall doors, so what? just make sure you don't flop your packer on the floor, and you will be fine.

i started going to the mens room long before i started T. it was always easier. I have been chased out of many womens restrooms, but never out of any mens rooms. Men don't give a rats ass.

i know i care a whole lot less about a lot of things, and especially the bathroom. go in, do my biznitch, and roll out, (and i always wash my hands)


:badcook:

[The Oopster]

I don't see what the difference is between this and the medicine spoon?

Not trying to be funny, but I don't understand why I would pay nine dollars when I can get the same thing at Target for free?

I mean, I don't see how this would be any easier to use either. It's still going to take a helluva lot of practice to learn to position this thing properly.


Am I Missing Something?,
Dylan...could have easily missed something

P.S. you can get latex tubing at Home Depot or Lowes. If you use that particular spoon (that you linked to), you can just put the tubing over the end...you don't need glue...and run it through your packer. Should take about 3 seconds. (you can use a dab of caulking if you're really concerned)

well maybe you get different types of medicine spoons in texas? Everything is bigger right? All I know is it is bevelled differently then the baby spoons i've gotten and this cups in better.

You don't have to buy your medicine spoons???? Surprise they hand something out for free that they sell.

What your suggesting doesn't work ...for a variety reasons .... been there done that.

[Dylan]

well maybe you get different types of medicine spoons in texas? Everything is bigger right? All I know is it is bevelled differently then the baby spoons i've gotten and this cups in better.

You don't have to buy your medicine spoons???? Surprise they hand something out for free that they sell.

What your suggesting doesn't work ...for a variety reasons .... been there done that.

Hmmm, I haven't used it, so I believe you that's it's different. It just looks the same from the picture. But I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I haven't used it...or even seen one up close.

Target's pharmacy gives out medicine spoons if you ask. I don't think it's just a Texas thing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Texas has bigger spoons HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What doesn't work? Because it worked for me. So, I don't know what you're referring to. I mean, if you're talking about the latex from Home Depot and such...it worked for me. But I don't know if that's what you're referring to.

Of course, everybody's different...six of one/half dozen...


Maybe We DO Have Bigger Spoons...For All Those Bigger Babies :),
Dylan

[The Oopster]

Hmmm, I haven't used it, so I believe you that's it's different. It just looks the same from the picture. But I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I haven't used it...or even seen one up close.

Target's pharmacy gives out medicine spoons if you ask. I don't think it's just a Texas thing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Texas has bigger spoons HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What doesn't work? Because it worked for me. So, I don't know what you're referring to. I mean, if you're talking about the latex from Home Depot and such...it worked for me. But I don't know if that's what you're referring to.

Of course, everybody's different...six of one/half dozen...


Maybe We DO Have Bigger Spoons...For All Those Bigger Babies :),
Dylan

Is your tubing harder and clear? That's what I got at Home Depot .... it works ok but the u-tube i bought through transitional male had a softer non clear tubing. So I'm guessing medical grade tubing isn't as stiff as the tubing I bought at home depot unless i was in the wrong aisle.

What doesn't work is if I stick it just on the end either I have to stick the spoon like object through the packy .... which then makes the packy harder to pack because it's stiff or if I insert the tube everything is way too long and I would have to hold the packy outside my pants to pee. If i let the tube kink up i just run into gravity problems.

I don't know there may be different types of spoons and I can't remember what the spoons were like that I had bought but i know that this was contoured just enough that leakage just isn't the issue i've had with the medicine spoon i tried and the spoon Nick uses on the ftm u-tube. All i know is I haven't used one in ages just went to the bathroom using it and it was super simple. Always have struggled with the other devices to the point I always had to take extra underwear and clothes with me and well then i just stopped using it.

[CamBAMF]

Uh... you mean those the other, right? Otherwise, that means that FTMs (males) outnumber MTFs (Females).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this or I said it backwards
but if 1 out of 12000 are MTF and 1 out of 34000 are FTM- Then isn't there a 3:1 ratio of MTF:FTM

34000/12000 = 2.8333 rounded to 3 for the sake of the equation

so...
in a group of 34000 people there will be an estimated 3 MTF and 1 FTM.
or did I majorly fuck this up?

lol

[CamBAMF]

While I disagree with a few other things you've said, this is the largest area in which I disagree with you.

Yeah, it's a bathroom.

Can you tell me, do you think it's ok for cismen to use the women's room too? I mean, should any man be able to use the women's room simply because he 'likes the motif'?

When One decides they're a man...they're a man. They don't get to live with one foot on this side, and one foot on that side. It's incredibly sexist and privileged (in my opinion) to say, "I want that, but I don't want that part of that". You don't get to make women feel uncomfortable, because YOU (general...not personal) are afraid of a bathroom. You (again general, not personal) don't get to soak up the privilege of being male, then trample on women-only space. There's things that suck about being male. You don't get to take the good parts and toss out the bad parts. That's incredibly privileged...and in this case sexist.

Scaring women for your own personal benefit is privileged and sexist.

Making women feel uncomfortable for your own person benefit is privileged and sexist.

Expecting women to accommodate and cater to YOUR (general) fears, wants, needs, etc is the HILT of sexist and privileged.

Expecting women to make room for YOU and coddle YOU is...sexist and privileged

If you're a man, you're a man, and you don't get 'special' privileges/access/whatever, simply because you were born in the wrong body.

ESPECIALLY considering the men's room is actually safer (although, definitely not cleaner).

I just can't imagine allowing ANY other man special entrance into the women's room (the exception being small children, or men with disabilities who need help, and that help tends to be *women*).

Perhaps you have gotten lucky, because I know I've had security called on me a number of times. I've even had a security officer crawl under the stall door to open it and remove me (while I was in the middle of doin' mahhh business) from the restroom. I've had women freak out. I've been lead to the men's room more times than I can even count.

To be quite honest, I truly believe those who make the biggest noise about the men's room, haven't even used the men's room. Because men don't even *look* at you in the men's room.

And to use the women's room, because you just want attention is to me just a complete abuse of privilege...especially when coupled with the statistics and fear of women and rape. It's taking advantage, and it's just the HILT of sexism and an abuse of power. As if men are just allowed to go wherever they want and do whatever they want, and women are just supposed to accommodate and 'understand' and then even CODDLE and soothe the fear of men. It's gross and abusive.

If you're a man, you don't take advantage. You don't make women feel uncomfortable, so you can feel 'safer', or 'get attention', or 'be more comfortable'.

I mean, if you want attention, men will definitely give it to you. If you don't feel safe in X space, find another space. If you want to feel comforted and soothed, you don't just *take* that from women or women's space.

I just cannot imagine another man doing any of these things, or using any of these excuses without having his ass handed to him.


Dylan

P.S. All the 'yous' in this post are completely general...I get tired of saying 'One', because sometimes it comes off sounding sarcastic


Whoa hold on. I'm not saying men, (FTM or not) have the right to do ANYTHING they want because they are men. I simply comment on the fact there is a big issue with this particular gendered area for no ryhme or reason (of course this is my opinion).

I don't find that sexist, because I dont believe its just men. Its of no real consern of mine if a woman does her business in the male restroom or a guy relieves himself in the female bathroom. I'm not going to call security on a female in the mens room- and its not like females have NEVER used the mens room for one reason or another. But that doesn't make the news. Its not news worthy. It doesnt bother men (typically speaking). And thats just what I expect from decent humans beings- women and men. This isnt the right to vote. this isnt asking a female to wipe a guys bottom. He relieved himself in a room which sole purpose is to go to the bathroom. Unless he peed on the counter or committed a random act of violence I dont see the issue. If there was no vandalism or physical harm, then I think we are over-reacting.

By the way, saying that a woman has the right to feel safe and not a man can also be sexist. Sexism works both ways here. Forcing someone to use the mens room when it makes them uncomfortable- well its similar to FORCING a one of us (FTM who are comfortable in the mens room) to use the female bathroom- it seems it would make some of us feel incredibly uncomfortable. People have the right to feel safe- men and women alike. Thats not abusive or sexist.

I'm just saying we are arguing that where a person relieves him/her self has become a gender issue because we (as in society) made it an issue. We seperated these rooms- and thats all they are really. They are just rooms with toilets and sinks- its purpose to go to the bathroom and wash our hands. Most of us have ones we our apartment and houses, and we share it with opposite genders just fine. We seperated them and said who can and who can't go in them. Why? Probably out of fear, I don't honestly know, I never did the research. Like I said previsouly, I'm the one all for family bathroom. There is no gender to them, and they save space, time, energy, and money.

Your totally right about the ones making the most noise about the mens room never used it. I am sorry to hear about your bathroom experience. I suppose I have been very lucky. I'm only devils advocate because not too long ago I was freaked about going into the mens room, and I had no indication that I shouldn't be either. Thankfully I have a really great set of friends and an ex girlfriend who helped me. I'm no longer like that, but I can understand it. Frankly, hes not here to defend himself, so none of us know why he was in there or how hes feeling.

And again I'm saying that if he REALLY did this for attention, then he got exactly what he wanted. Because guys like us are sitting around a computer after the fact talking/ debating about it.

[CamBAMF]

I really need to work on that part. I've tried it a couple of times only end up with my leg wet. I think my biggest concern is the strength of the stream being too forceful and thus overflowing.

http://www.mangoproducts.net/PackAndPee.htm

Its a combo of prosthetics and the medicine spoon. It's my favorite, but it does cost moeny. Like Dylan said why pay if u can get something cheaper and jsut as reliable at Target. I just like the feeling of 'wiping it out' at a urinal.

[Dylan]

Is your tubing harder and clear? That's what I got at Home Depot .... it works ok but the u-tube i bought through transitional male had a softer non clear tubing. So I'm guessing medical grade tubing isn't as stiff as the tubing I bought at home depot unless i was in the wrong aisle.

What doesn't work is if I stick it just on the end either I have to stick the spoon like object through the packy .... which then makes the packy harder to pack because it's stiff or if I insert the tube everything is way too long and I would have to hold the packy outside my pants to pee. If i let the tube kink up i just run into gravity problems.

I don't know there may be different types of spoons and I can't remember what the spoons were like that I had bought but i know that this was contoured just enough that leakage just isn't the issue i've had with the medicine spoon i tried and the spoon Nick uses on the ftm u-tube. All i know is I haven't used one in ages just went to the bathroom using it and it was super simple. Always have struggled with the other devices to the point I always had to take extra underwear and clothes with me and well then i just stopped using it.

No, I found latex tubing at...it was probably Lowes. It came off the roll, right next to the clear tubing you're talking about (brought some of both home, so I know exactly what you're talking about).

Yeah, I had to mess with the length too.

I have to say, while I have some of Target's free spoons, I've found the ones that I actually paid for ($1.78 from probably WalMart), work just a tad better. I don't know what it is, but yeah, they do work just a little better. It took me about a month or a month and half to really get the medicine spoon (either the free ones or the other ones) down pat.

The latex tubing is VERY hard to get around a regular medicine spoon. One trick is to take an eye dropper and melt it around the base of a cut medicine spoon (so it makes a funnel...so it looks like the link you posted), and then just put that in the latex and drag the latex thru the packer (someone on youtube has a video of this, but youtube jams up my computer <sad face>, so I can't link to it).

I'll be honest, I don't pack everyday, because it's just too damned hot here (I just carry the spoon). Last thing I need is another heat rash somewhere uncomfortable (I've got a binder that gives me all the heat rash I'll ever need). Working outside in this heat makes everything uncomfortable enough. But I have what I'm talking about (wish I could explain it better), and it works as well (because basically it's the same thing) as what that guy sells on transitionalmale. I couldn't figure out that guy's sizing. I don't know those measurements down there. Seemed too much guesstimating...especially when I have all the materials and can custom make whatever I need.

I cut the medicine spoon down to desired length, melted the medicine dropper (that came in the same package as the $1.78 medicine spoon) to the end (so it looks like what you linked to only shorter) with a cigarette lighter. Let it cool (I actually used ice water to cool it off, cuz I'm impatient). Stick medicine dropper into latex. Fish latex through. Voila! The end of the dropper sits in the packer about 1/2 inch or less (can't really remember exactly, but it's definitely not more than 1/2 inch)...but it's not uncomfortable, and it doesn't look weird or anything.

The worst thing I've run into is a decent packer harness. But a lot of that has to do with the heat here. I don't like to pack, because it's just too freakin' hot, and I don't want a bunch of extra crap in mahhh drawers creating more heat.

But thanks for clarifying. I totally know what you're talking about now. I had that issue too, and solved it by melting the dropper onto the end of the spoon, so I could make the total length exactly what I wanted.


Dylan

[Linus]

http://www.mangoproducts.net/PackAndPee.htm

Its a combo of prosthetics and the medicine spoon. It's my favorite, but it does cost moeny. Like Dylan said why pay if u can get something cheaper and jsut as reliable at Target. I just like the feeling of 'wiping it out' at a urinal.

I did purchase from them but they have the worst business practise I've ever seen. I actually had to file a complaint with the BBB before they responded to me --- over 6 months after I had paid and repeated emails to them. I discourage anyone who wants a PackAndPee from buying from Mango.

[Linus]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this or I said it backwards
but if 1 out of 12000 are MTF and 1 out of 34000 are FTM- Then isn't there a 3:1 ratio of MTF:FTM

34000/12000 = 2.8333 rounded to 3 for the sake of the equation

so...
in a group of 34000 people there will be an estimated 3 MTF and 1 FTM.
or did I majorly fuck this up?

lol

No.. it's the part where you said:

"males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM..."

MTFs are women.

FTMs are men.

[weatherboi]

Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant




Whoa hold on. I'm not saying men, (FTM or not) have the right to do ANYTHING they want because they are men. I simply comment on the fact there is a big issue with this particular gendered area for no ryhme or reason (of course this is my opinion).

I don't find that sexist, because I dont believe its just men. Its of no real consern of mine if a woman does her business in the male restroom or a guy relieves himself in the female bathroom. I'm not going to call security on a female in the mens room- and its not like females have NEVER used the mens room for one reason or another. But that doesn't make the news. Its not news worthy. It doesnt bother men (typically speaking). And thats just what I expect from decent humans beings- women and men. This isnt the right to vote. this isnt asking a female to wipe a guys bottom. He relieved himself in a room which sole purpose is to go to the bathroom. Unless he peed on the counter or committed a random act of violence I dont see the issue. If there was no vandalism or physical harm, then I think we are over-reacting.

By the way, saying that a woman has the right to feel safe and not a man can also be sexist. Sexism works both ways here. Forcing someone to use the mens room when it makes them uncomfortable- well its similar to FORCING a one of us (FTM who are comfortable in the mens room) to use the female bathroom- it seems it would make some of us feel incredibly uncomfortable. People have the right to feel safe- men and women alike. Thats not abusive or sexist.

I'm just saying we are arguing that where a person relieves him/her self has become a gender issue because we (as in society) made it an issue. We seperated these rooms- and thats all they are really. They are just rooms with toilets and sinks- its purpose to go to the bathroom and wash our hands. Most of us have ones we our apartment and houses, and we share it with opposite genders just fine. We seperated them and said who can and who can't go in them. Why? Probably out of fear, I don't honestly know, I never did the research. Like I said previsouly, I'm the one all for family bathroom. There is no gender to them, and they save space, time, energy, and money.

Your totally right about the ones making the most noise about the mens room never used it. I am sorry to hear about your bathroom experience. I suppose I have been very lucky. I'm only devils advocate because not too long ago I was freaked about going into the mens room, and I had no indication that I shouldn't be either. Thankfully I have a really great set of friends and an ex girlfriend who helped me. I'm no longer like that, but I can understand it. Frankly, hes not here to defend himself, so none of us know why he was in there or how hes feeling.

And again I'm saying that if he REALLY did this for attention, then he got exactly what he wanted. Because guys like us are sitting around a computer after the fact talking/ debating about it.

[The Oopster]

No.. it's the part where you said:

"males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM..."

MTFs are women.

FTMs are men.

Originally Posted by CamBAMF
the last estimate I heard was 1 out of 12000 males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM... but I did also hear that gap was closing. and these estimates were taken when I was like 8 years old..

I woindered if that wasn't what you were talking about. It sort of caught me, but I figured cam was quoting a study and guessed the study was referring to 1 out of 12000 identified as males at birth are MTF so actually identify as woman and 1 out of 34000 identified at birth as female are FTMs so actually identify as men.

[Jet]

So, does that mean you're going to wait until you have a full beard before you stop using the women's restroom?


Dylan

I'll never wear a beard

[Rufusboi]

I'll never wear a beard

Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus

[Billy]

Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus

That's what I'm saying ....Why after everything we go through to be seen as MALE , want to go into the womans room .....You can't have it both ways ..

[Jet]

Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus

who says i would invade

[Rufusboi]

who says i would invade

The word INVADE means to intrude upon or encroach upon.

If you enter the womens bathroom and you are identifying as male then you are invading.

Rufus

[Logicaly]

As of right now, I do use the womens restroom. However that being said, I have not started T, nor had any surgeries. It is however very akward for me to use the womens restroom, as there are times that I do get looks, or I have been stopped by men, from entering the womens restroom. Once I am more passable, I fully intend to use the mens room.

That being said, I do think that if a person can pass no problem as a male, then they have no business in the womens restroom. I cant imagine why they would want to bring that discomfort onto a total stranger, and I guess for me, since I feel such discomfort already with being in the womens room, that I cant imagine that it wouldnt make someone who is completely passable, extremely uncomfortable in the womens room.

[The Oopster]

No, I found latex tubing at...it was probably Lowes. It came off the roll, right next to the clear tubing you're talking about (brought some of both home, so I know exactly what you're talking about).

Yeah, I had to mess with the length too.

I have to say, while I have some of Target's free spoons, I've found the ones that I actually paid for ($1.78 from probably WalMart), work just a tad better. I don't know what it is, but yeah, they do work just a little better. It took me about a month or a month and half to really get the medicine spoon (either the free ones or the other ones) down pat.

The latex tubing is VERY hard to get around a regular medicine spoon. One trick is to take an eye dropper and melt it around the base of a cut medicine spoon (so it makes a funnel...so it looks like the link you posted), and then just put that in the latex and drag the latex thru the packer (someone on youtube has a video of this, but youtube jams up my computer <sad face>, so I can't link to it).

I'll be honest, I don't pack everyday, because it's just too damned hot here (I just carry the spoon). Last thing I need is another heat rash somewhere uncomfortable (I've got a binder that gives me all the heat rash I'll ever need). Working outside in this heat makes everything uncomfortable enough. But I have what I'm talking about (wish I could explain it better), and it works as well (because basically it's the same thing) as what that guy sells on transitionalmale. I couldn't figure out that guy's sizing. I don't know those measurements down there. Seemed too much guesstimating...especially when I have all the materials and can custom make whatever I need.

I cut the medicine spoon down to desired length, melted the medicine dropper (that came in the same package as the $1.78 medicine spoon) to the end (so it looks like what you linked to only shorter) with a cigarette lighter. Let it cool (I actually used ice water to cool it off, cuz I'm impatient). Stick medicine dropper into latex. Fish latex through. Voila! The end of the dropper sits in the packer about 1/2 inch or less (can't really remember exactly, but it's definitely not more than 1/2 inch)...but it's not uncomfortable, and it doesn't look weird or anything.

The worst thing I've run into is a decent packer harness. But a lot of that has to do with the heat here. I don't like to pack, because it's just too freakin' hot, and I don't want a bunch of extra crap in mahhh drawers creating more heat.

But thanks for clarifying. I totally know what you're talking about now. I had that issue too, and solved it by melting the dropper onto the end of the spoon, so I could make the total length exactly what I wanted.


Dylan

Hey thanks for more detail... i'll have to check out lowes if i'm ever around one ..... not a lot near where I live.

Since I don't own a lighter wouldn't have thought of the melting trick.

Plus i'm sure a lot of people don't know about the possibility of free medicine spoons. I wouldn't have thought of asking since it's something they sell. Price is a tad higher here too ... but everything is in cali.

[CamBAMF]

I did purchase from them but they have the worst business practise I've ever seen. I actually had to file a complaint with the BBB before they responded to me --- over 6 months after I had paid and repeated emails to them. I discourage anyone who wants a PackAndPee from buying from Mango.

I can see that. Twice I bought from them and twice they were late. But As soon as I sent them an email (and it wasn't a nice email) my products were shipped... I also heard there is a site that other people have used. Djknowsdicks.com but when I visited there it look incredible unprofessional. Idk

[CamBAMF]

No.. it's the part where you said:

"males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM..."

MTFs are women.

FTMs are men.

oh my mistake, I was refering to biological males and female- the gender before transistioning. so odds are 1 out of 34000 females is transgender and will transition into a male.

[CamBAMF]

Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant

I understand that. I mean I was female, I have girl friends, and I had them before transistioning. I know the going ons in public bathrooms. This sacred space is the nature of the beast in which society created.

In the UK (mind you this is not a first hand experience account) the law says anyone may use any public convenience, regardless of gender, provided that they are using it only for it's intended purpose.

It's not a female space- its a public space that was granted to females for reasons unnown- likely fear. Its not fair for any of us to say that a FTM has to push past thier fear to use the mensroom, but a female does not have to push past her fear to share the room. There is no privledge here. This action of relieving ones self made news somewhere. He wasn't let off because he was a guy- but I haven't heard a report on females entering males room. Like I said before, no one bats an eye if a female uses a males bathroom. I did when I was young, I've seen girl friends, and female family members use mens bathroom for different reason. You can not say a female bathroom is sacred space, but a male bathroom is fair game.

I feel like everyone is throwing the word sexism and safty but not seeing that these things work both ways. It is just as sexist to say a man/ftm can not go into a female bathroom because that is a sacred space to them- and they fear us, but its okay for them to come into the mens room. And its just as sexist to say a Ftm HAS to use the mens room (where they are uncomfortable- for safty reasons) because using the females room makes them uncomfortable-for safety reasons. Whos comfortability is worth more? Thats why I am for unisex/family bathroom. We are equally uncomfortable. no one has 'priviledge'.

Now, I am defending the FTM, but do not misunderstand me. I do not think it is right to make anyone- whatever gender feel uncomfrotable. No I do not want girls uncomfortable, but neither do I want my FTM brothern to feel uncomfrotable. I am not misogynistic by any stretch of the imagination. I am a huige supporter of womens rights, but only till they are equal to the male counterparts. No one is better then the other.

I do not work in gender. I don't do things now because its the guy thing. I never did things before transitioning because it was a girl thing. I am a human. I would in the plane of other decent moral humans. The right of feeling safe in public space is one shared by all genders. The right to relieve ones self is shared by all of nature. This has become an issue because we have split the two most popular genders' restrooms- an action that has created nothing but other issues on sexism combined with the rights of public space- all for safety purposes; which I'm sorry to say- just do not work.

Unisex bathrooms are the future... Thats all I'm saying.

[CamBAMF]

yea thats what I saw... Thanks!

[Linus]

I can see that. Twice I bought from them and twice they were late. But As soon as I sent them an email (and it wasn't a nice email) my products were shipped... I also heard there is a site that other people have used. Djknowsdicks.com but when I visited there it look incredible unprofessional. Idk

I've actually bought from there as well. And the product is just as good as Mangos but they actually respond to emails (nice or not). The guy that runs it is an FTM. Very simple operation but he's also a responsive business man (that is, he cares about YOU as a customer).

He is not, however, a web designer. LOL

[chefhmboyrd]

That's what I'm saying ....Why after everything we go through to be seen as MALE , want to go into the womans room .....You can't have it both ways ..

amen brother billy, you guys need to put on your big boy pull ups and got to the damn men's room where we belong.
@

[chefhmboyrd]

As of right now, I do use the womens restroom. However that being said, I have not started T, nor had any surgeries. It is however very akward for me to use the womens restroom, as there are times that I do get looks, or I have been stopped by men, from entering the womens restroom. Once I am more passable, I fully intend to use the mens room.

That being said, I do think that if a person can pass no problem as a male, then they have no business in the womens restroom. I cant imagine why they would want to bring that discomfort onto a total stranger, and I guess for me, since I feel such discomfort already with being in the womens room, that I cant imagine that it wouldnt make someone who is completely passable, extremely uncomfortable in the womens room.

it is not a matter of "passable" it is in your mind. if you walk in there like you have been in there your whole life, then you got no worries. walk in there scared like a lil girl an you will get nervous and think everyone is staring at you. it is up to you to decide when you are ready. and if you are uncomfortable going in the women's room, then it's past the time bucko.

@

[The Oopster]

it is not a matter of "passable" it is in your mind. if you walk in there like you have been in there your whole life, then you got no worries. walk in there scared like a lil girl an you will get nervous and think everyone is staring at you. it is up to you to decide when you are ready. and if you are uncomfortable going in the women's room, then it's past the time bucko.

@

dang not sure how long ago but it was a couple years ago ... I hadn't started injectible T yet. Was on the cream but still didn't completely pass. Mainly my voice though but some people could figure it out.

I was on jury duty ... went into the women's bathroom the first day and right away could tell that wasn't going to work. Since no one knew my legal name, I was just a number I used the mens that whole week. Of the four people I hung out with, I think 2 of them figured it out but it was cool they were respectful and as far as I know didn't say anything to the 3 rd. In fact he cranked the song "detachable penis" while I was in the car .... it was hilarious cause he was totally clueless.

My other funny bathroom story was some cranky ol guy at my AA meeting was getting after me for using the unisex/family/handicap bathroom not too long ago. I tease with everyone that i'm the only one that fits all three symbols on the sign.

I started using mens changing rooms about the same time I started using the mens restroom. Targets have everything in one area now so it's no big deal but other places I was buying in the mens so it was just easiest to go in there and no one ever said anything. There were times a sales clerk would have to help me also.

I 've known women to use the mens that don't even pass at all if they got to go and it has no line. The men may tilt or shake their head but that's as far as it goes.

It's just hard to realize the dynamics are so different until you just go ahead and use it.

I started in areas where I wasn't going to run into people I knew. If around my parents I would decide I had to go after they were all done. I'm not around dad often so I think that would still be weird but I do go into the mens room with a ton of other men that have seen me go through this process, and to my face no one has said anything except the story I posted above when I didn't use the mens room.

[tuffboi29]

So I've been in here a few times...and not just out of curiosity. I had passed of living as a guy for about 6 monthes one time and had never been happier.
Although I never exposed that side of me to my family and now that I'm living near them I can't pass it off at all as they are well known in the community.
I was asked today when I look in the mirror what do I see? I answered..."I see what should have been a guy".
Because of the predjudices I've grown up with and in this community I havent had much exposure to the life I want to live. To be blunt I'm a bit scared and confused.
Luckily I have a wonderful woman by my side helping me explore deeper into myself than I was ever willing to go on my own. As a matter of fact...she was the one who got me to admit not only to her but myself the true nature of my feelings and thoughts.
I know I'm rambling a bit guys...I'm sorry.
Maybe this is a reach-out to those who may understand my angst, confusion, and need to simply be me? Idk...
Any feedback would be appreciated as I am dieing to know if I'm the only one feeling this way?

[Liam]

So I've been in here a few times...and not just out of curiosity. I had passed of living as a guy for about 6 monthes one time and had never been happier.
Although I never exposed that side of me to my family and now that I'm living near them I can't pass it off at all as they are well known in the community.
I was asked today when I look in the mirror what do I see? I answered..."I see what should have been a guy".
Because of the predjudices I've grown up with and in this community I havent had much exposure to the life I want to live. To be blunt I'm a bit scared and confused.
Luckily I have a wonderful woman by my side helping me explore deeper into myself than I was ever willing to go on my own. As a matter of fact...she was the one who got me to admit not only to her but myself the true nature of my feelings and thoughts.
I know I'm rambling a bit guys...I'm sorry.
Maybe this is a reach-out to those who may understand my angst, confusion, and need to simply be me? Idk...
Any feedback would be appreciated as I am dieing to know if I'm the only one feeling this way?

I will never forget the first time a woman looked at me, and saw me—really saw me. I had spent so many years thinking that it was all in my head. It was one of the most delightful moments of my life.

Best of luck tuff!

[tuffboi29]

First of all...Thanks guys...Seriously...Thank you.
So right now I'm quietly and discreetly packing...umm...My boxerbriefs.
Besides this and one other post I haven't spoken about this with anyone but my girlfriend.
I have to say it feels...idk...right?
I'm just learning what this in me is exactly...definitions and such...But more importantly how alot of this applies to me.How I relate to it.
I've just recently admitted for the first time my first fantisies.Which were of girls.And as myself in the male role.
What I thought of as a child. Could I maybe wake one morn and be a boy? Would I finally be "right" then?
When I first realized I was a girl I was made to use a public womens restroom for the first time by myself. I was horrified and thought there was a very serious mistake on the adult's part in making me go in there. I kept thinking just why the HELL they would force me go in THERE with the GIRLS?
Before I was old enough to understand the difference between the boys and girls, I ran with my bio male cousins on the farm...I ran about shirtless with them, hunted and went fishing with them, climbed trees and explored the woods and farmlands.I was one of them.
I remember trying to explain to my ma just why I shouldn't go to the girls bathroom or wear dresses and even the time I told her I was goin to marry a girl one day....the words she used to describe MY thoughts and MY f****** feelings (when I was once told my thoughts and feelings were just THAT...MINE!)...I was told I was unnatural...god would call me an abonmination...I better NEVER tell anyone else lest I embarressed the family at church...Guys, I was sent to a M*****F****** christian therapy camp to help "cure" me of these evil thoughts for surely the devil was tempting me to go against god's will.
When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)
So untill these past 4 months my thoughts on this subject were as limited as my knowledge and understanding.
I feel like I'm rambling again so I'm goin to end this with a final thought and thanks.
My thanks is to my wonderful ya'fa girlfriend who brought me not only to this site but took the time and patience to help me understand what myself and others had sought to destroy and hide.(And of course she ever so discretely guided me to FTM threads and friends of hers...lol)
My final thought is for you guys.The bravery it must have took to forge this path!! I will never be able to express my gratitude too be able to finally speak freely and ask the questions I was never given the chance too.

[JustLovelyJenn]

First of all...Thanks guys...Seriously...Thank you.
So right now I'm quietly and discreetly packing...umm...My boxerbriefs.
Besides this and one other post I haven't spoken about this with anyone but my girlfriend.
I have to say it feels...idk...right?
I'm just learning what this in me is exactly...definitions and such...But more importantly how alot of this applies to me.How I relate to it.
I've just recently admitted for the first time my first fantisies.Which were of girls.And as myself in the male role.
What I thought of as a child. Could I maybe wake one morn and be a boy? Would I finally be "right" then?
When I first realized I was a girl I was made to use a public womens restroom for the first time by myself. I was horrified and thought there was a very serious mistake on the adult's part in making me go in there. I kept thinking just why the HELL they would force me go in THERE with the GIRLS?
Before I was old enough to understand the difference between the boys and girls, I ran with my bio male cousins on the farm...I ran about shirtless with them, hunted and went fishing with them, climbed trees and explored the woods and farmlands.I was one of them.
I remember trying to explain to my ma just why I shouldn't go to the girls bathroom or wear dresses and even the time I told her I was goin to marry a girl one day....the words she used to describe MY thoughts and MY f****** feelings (when I was once told my thoughts and feelings were just THAT...MINE!)...I was told I was unnatural...god would call me an abonmination...I better NEVER tell anyone else lest I embarressed the family at church...Guys, I was sent to a M*****F****** christian therapy camp to help "cure" me of these evil thoughts for surely the devil was tempting me to go against god's will.
When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)
So untill these past 4 months my thoughts on this subject were as limited as my knowledge and understanding.
I feel like I'm rambling again so I'm goin to end this with a final thought and thanks.
My thanks is to my wonderful ya'fa girlfriend who brought me not only to this site but took the time and patience to help me understand what myself and others had sought to destroy and hide.(And of course she ever so discretely guided me to FTM threads and friends of hers...lol)
My final thought is for you guys.The bravery it must have took to forge this path!! I will never be able to express my gratitude too be able to finally speak freely and ask the questions I was never given the chance too.

Baby,

I wanted to stop and tell you how proud I am of you today. How hard I know it must have been to come here and say these things, what a big step this is for you. You have a wonderful, beautiful soul and it fits perfectly with who you are and should be.

What I saw in you as we first started talking was someone who was so much more then they were allowing themselves to be. THIS, is part of that person you have hidden from the world. I am so happy and excited to see you embracing that in you which makes you who you are and bring you happiness and completion.

As you explore yourself and this new and wonderful world you never new was around you, I will be right there by your side. I will quietly hold your hands and answer what questions I can, or send you to those who can if I cant. I will wait patiently as you ponder what is in you and come to decisions about how you want to be seen by the world. YOU are who I fell in love with. ALL OF YOU! I am excited for you to see that person the way I do.

I love you so much and I will always support you to the best of my ability.

With all the love I posses,

Your Heart, as You are Mine.

[The Oopster]

First of all...Thanks guys...Seriously...Thank you.
So right now I'm quietly and discreetly packing...umm...My boxerbriefs.
Besides this and one other post I haven't spoken about this with anyone but my girlfriend.
I have to say it feels...idk...right?

I remember the first time I packed feeling this same way and wondering how a piece of silicone could help fill in some of the missing pieces of me, but it did. As time has progressed, what, how, and if I pack ebbs and flows. It was hard for some other people to get that, even femmes. I think I needed to do it so badly all the time at first because it was an identity of me that had been missing for years. Now 5 years later there are times I just dont' need to. Most of the time I still do but I'm okay if I don't.


I'm just learning what this in me is exactly...definitions and such...But more importantly how alot of this applies to me.How I relate to it.
I've just recently admitted for the first time my first fantisies.Which were of girls.And as myself in the male role.
What I thought of as a child. Could I maybe wake one morn and be a boy? Would I finally be "right" then?
When I first realized I was a girl I was made to use a public womens restroom for the first time by myself. I was horrified and thought there was a very serious mistake on the adult's part in making me go in there. I kept thinking just why the HELL they would force me go in THERE with the GIRLS?
Before I was old enough to understand the difference between the boys and girls, I ran with my bio male cousins on the farm...I ran about shirtless with them, hunted and went fishing with them, climbed trees and explored the woods and farmlands.I was one of them.
I remember trying to explain to my ma just why I shouldn't go to the girls bathroom or wear dresses and even the time I told her I was goin to marry a girl one day....the words she used to describe MY thoughts and MY f****** feelings (when I was once told my thoughts and feelings were just THAT...MINE!)...I was told I was unnatural...god would call me an abonmination...I better NEVER tell anyone else lest I embarressed the family at church...Guys, I was sent to a M*****F****** christian therapy camp to help "cure" me of these evil thoughts for surely the devil was tempting me to go against god's will.

A couple of years ago when I was going through the whole which bathroom to use dilema and not feeling like I had a bathroom to go in ... I flashed back to the first grade. I had to go to the dr. because almost every day during reading class I had to go to the bathroom. They wondered if something was wrong physically with me. The whole bathroom dilema made me remember it and what was really happening. I could see myself standing outside the bathroom doors wanting to go into the boys and knowing I had to go in the girls but feeling it wasn't right to go in there either. I may have even used the boys once or twice i can't remember that but I do remember finally just making myself go into the girls when no one was looking. After I went to the drs and nothing was wrong ... I was forced to go in with the girls at bathroom time. I also remember going passed the boys lockeroom thinking that was the room I should be going in.

All my friends prior to going to school were boys. Girls seem to be the pretty little things that looked like they would break if they played with me.

I also remember the first time I was told I had to keep my shirt on because I was a girl .. i tore it off and ran around the yard yelling no I'm a boy, I'm a boy.

Family is hard, I'm sorry yours has been so condemning.
When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)
So untill these past 4 months my thoughts on this subject were as limited as my knowledge and understanding.
I feel like I'm rambling again so I'm goin to end this with a final thought and thanks.
My thanks is to my wonderful ya'fa girlfriend who brought me not only to this site but took the time and patience to help me understand what myself and others had sought to destroy and hide.(And of course she ever so discretely guided me to FTM threads and friends of hers...lol)
My final thought is for you guys.The bravery it must have took to forge this path!! I will never be able to express my gratitude too be able to finally speak freely and ask the questions I was never given the chance too.

I think a lot of us have been fortunate to have someone placed in our lives that could see us when we couldn't see ourselves.

I was fortnuate also to find a site like this one within the first year of realizing my attraction to women. That is why I will always remain a part of this community. If other transgendered men had not been on that site I may still not have gotten to the truth of who I really am. Yes there are ftm sites but if I hadn't had interaction with them I would never have been able to realize that when I'm looking at them I'm seeing me. I wouldn't have know to even look that way. An arena like this allowed me to have the bridge to move towards the destination of me.

[Jet]

The word INVADE means to intrude upon or encroach upon.

If you enter the womens bathroom and you are identifying as male then you are invading.

Rufus

who says i would invade

That's what I'm saying ....Why after everything we go through to be seen as MALE , want to go into the womans room .....You can't have it both ways ..

Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus

Hey I just want to set this straight for the record...
I would never invade women's space. I don't get where that comes off. Secondly, I won't wear a beard...it was just my comment on my preference regarding facial hair. I never said i would "invade" anyone's space let alone the women's rest room. My comments had nothing to restrooms. jus' sayin'

[Dylan]

I think id have to have more than peach fuzz to use the men;s room.

We might have gotten the idea you were talking about restrooms and using the women's restroom from this post where you state you'd have to have more than peach fuzz to use the men's room


Dylan

[atomiczombie]

When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)

Yeah that is fubar. Luckily I didn't come out as trans until after my marriage ended. But my ex-wife calls me by my birth name (not my legal name) and uses female pronouns when talking about me just to be a fucking bitch. She knows I changed my name, that I go by male pronouns, that I am trans. She actually said to my face a few months ago, when I asked her to please use my legal name, that I don't have the right equipment to be Drew. *shakes head*

Anyhow, it's awesome that you have a girlfriend who understands and supports you! Hang in there buddy!

[theoddz]

Yeah that is fubar. Luckily I didn't come out as trans until after my marriage ended. But my ex-wife calls me by my birth name (not my legal name) and uses female pronouns when talking about me just to be a fucking bitch. She knows I changed my name, that I go by male pronouns, that I am trans. She actually said to my face a few months ago, when I asked her to please use my legal name, that I don't have the right equipment to be Drew. *shakes head*

Anyhow, it's awesome that you have a girlfriend who understands and supports you! Hang in there buddy!

I think some people do that when they get angry, just to be vicious and try to strip you of your identity. It's like any other kind of weapon....they reach for what's "handy" and most likely to hurt you the most. It really says more about her than it does about you. :winky:

That's a low blow, and I think the most effective way to answer something like that is just to have nothing more to do with them. Complete, utter silence and a total refusal to acknowledge them in any way is the ultimate and most effective weapon you have against that sort of thing. You don't need someone like that in your life, do you??

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[CamBAMF]

First of all...Thanks guys...Seriously...Thank you.
So right now I'm quietly and discreetly packing...umm...My boxerbriefs.
Besides this and one other post I haven't spoken about this with anyone but my girlfriend.
I have to say it feels...idk...right?
I'm just learning what this in me is exactly...definitions and such...But more importantly how alot of this applies to me.How I relate to it.
I've just recently admitted for the first time my first fantisies.Which were of girls.And as myself in the male role.
What I thought of as a child. Could I maybe wake one morn and be a boy? Would I finally be "right" then?
When I first realized I was a girl I was made to use a public womens restroom for the first time by myself. I was horrified and thought there was a very serious mistake on the adult's part in making me go in there. I kept thinking just why the HELL they would force me go in THERE with the GIRLS?
Before I was old enough to understand the difference between the boys and girls, I ran with my bio male cousins on the farm...I ran about shirtless with them, hunted and went fishing with them, climbed trees and explored the woods and farmlands.I was one of them.
I remember trying to explain to my ma just why I shouldn't go to the girls bathroom or wear dresses and even the time I told her I was goin to marry a girl one day....the words she used to describe MY thoughts and MY f****** feelings (when I was once told my thoughts and feelings were just THAT...MINE!)...I was told I was unnatural...god would call me an abonmination...I better NEVER tell anyone else lest I embarressed the family at church...Guys, I was sent to a M*****F****** christian therapy camp to help "cure" me of these evil thoughts for surely the devil was tempting me to go against god's will.
When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)
So untill these past 4 months my thoughts on this subject were as limited as my knowledge and understanding.
I feel like I'm rambling again so I'm goin to end this with a final thought and thanks.
My thanks is to my wonderful ya'fa girlfriend who brought me not only to this site but took the time and patience to help me understand what myself and others had sought to destroy and hide.(And of course she ever so discretely guided me to FTM threads and friends of hers...lol)
My final thought is for you guys.The bravery it must have took to forge this path!! I will never be able to express my gratitude too be able to finally speak freely and ask the questions I was never given the chance too.

I remember being three and telling my mom that god had made a mistake, that I was suppose to be a boy. I remember pray that god would fix it, that I would wake up as a boy. I think to this day it's really what held be back from believeing in "god" (my spirituality/ beliefs are always changing, but I just can't believe in one god kinda deal.) Luckily my family (particularly my mom's side) isn't really religious, so it went unnoticed and through my various coming out stories they never brought it up. (and on a side note: whole I'm sure my dad would have loved to say something along the line about me going to hell, my mom would have castrated him- so even he didn't say anything. He's only now kinda coming around. Its a slow process with him)

I remember starting to pack, like just trying it out. I was still kinda new to the whole thing. I tried socks and another time a strap on (which just turned out to be extremely funny walking around with a boner all day. lol) But besides uncomfortable (neither really felt correct in my pants. lol.) but I wore one or the other anyway till I could afford a packy. I felt like something belonged there, I just wasn't sure what or where to get it till a while later. lol. Just as previously mentioned in another post, it seemed to fill up some kind of missing piece within me at the time. Now I don't normally go out without my pack-n-pee on, but if I'm not wearing it its no big deal.

I didn't 'know' what I was. I knew I wasn't right though. I didn't have a word for how I felt till college when I met a MTF. At the time I was dating a girl who basically bluntly told me if that was the way I was I wasn't worth her time. The next two girlfriend's knew before hand and still tried to 'fix' me. It was only my most recent ex who really saw who I was. She walked me through each part (the doctors/therapist, the T, tellling friends and family, changing bathrooms, etc.) standing next to me the whole time. I gotta tell you, I was scared sh**less! She literally walked me by the hand through each of my steps so far. Hell, she even bragged about me (which I thought was amazing!) on a local radio station (w/o saying my name of course). It's pretty amazing when you meet someone who really loves you for you. While we are not together anymore for other reasons- I still thank her to this day for the support she gave me.

It can be a complicated path, but you know when it's the right one. Some ways it gets easier, other aspects can be... more difficult... but at the end of the day you have to be who you are, no matter who or what that is. Stay true to yourself bro. We're all here for you.

-Cameron

[atomiczombie]

I think some people do that when they get angry, just to be vicious and try to strip you of your identity. It's like any other kind of weapon....they reach for what's "handy" and most likely to hurt you the most. It really says more about her than it does about you. :winky:

That's a low blow, and I think the most effective way to answer something like that is just to have nothing more to do with them. Complete, utter silence and a total refusal to acknowledge them in any way is the ultimate and most effective weapon you have against that sort of thing. You don't need someone like that in your life, do you??

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Heh. Wish it were that easy. We have a daughter together so I occasionally have to bump into this woman, like I did tonight. Jess (my daughter) sang at a recital and my folks and I went, and of course my nasty ex-wife was there. She was all super sweet with my folks which really made me mad cause she barely acknowledged my presence (not that I really want to have anything to do with her.) She just did that to dig her heel into me more. I really don't give a shit what she thinks of me but damn to have someone be so vile to me, it's not something with which I am comfortable.

[Linus]

So a question for trans folks, particularly those who do not have their gender letters changed.

I lost a filling the other day. It's an annoying filling on a back molar that I regularly get a temp filling (my temp fillings for this last about 3-4 years). Anyways, as I was frantically looking for a dentist, I tried to get one at the LGBTQ Community Health Center (Callen-Lorde) because, well, they are LGBTQ. But it's near impossible to get an appointment there because of the number of existing patients.

I eventually found one nearby but I couldn't help worrying whether I'd end up having to face an issue with the dentist because I'm an FTM. In the end, she was wonderful and quick. What was nice was that on her forms she had listed "What name would you like to be called by", which I found interesting.

So my question is this: do you assume that when going to non-LGBTQ medical personnel that you'll face discrimination? I wonder if we set ourselves up by having this constant fear over our heads based on the stories we constantly hear (the horror stories) and because of the stories we don't hear (the fabulous accepting ones).

[CamBAMF]

So my question is this: do you assume that when going to non-LGBTQ medical personnel that you'll face discrimination? I wonder if we set ourselves up by having this constant fear over our heads based on the stories we constantly hear (the horror stories) and because of the stories we don't hear (the fabulous accepting ones).

No. I don't think I ever really did.

I told my regular doctor before starting T, and while she was totally shocked she seemed fine with it. But I felt it was medically necessary for her to know for my health, in the event the some drug she was perscribing may not interact well for whatever reason or whatever. I never told my dentist or optomitrist as I feel that it doesn't really matter to them what I do in my spare time and my transistion doesn't effect my teeth or eyes (to my knowledge) so thier jobs aren't affected by it.

My only issue stems from temporary doctors. While I'm at college it's extremely hard to see my regualr doctor so I visit a walking in place near my school. I have never seen the same doctor there twice. However there has been akward issue with explaining my legal name/ and my perferred name (as they also ask for a person perferred name) and my list of medications. I just tell them. Get it out of the way. If they seem uncomfortable (which hasn't yet happened) I have no real fear since the chances of seeing them again are slim to none.

But maybe I've never really feared doctors because I haven't heard the stories. Im born in 88 so the stories I hear are from the late 90s to today. The worse story that I've ever heard was rudeness from a nurse or staff member. Maybe that's why I have no fear of doctors. So perhaps I am not a good example.

[The Oopster]

So my question is this: do you assume that when going to non-LGBTQ medical personnel that you'll face discrimination? I wonder if we set ourselves up by having this constant fear over our heads based on the stories we constantly hear (the horror stories) and because of the stories we don't hear (the fabulous accepting ones).

I personally believe a lot of how we are received is the energy we put out ..

I've known people in the community really hesitant that have had bad experiences even with LGBTQ doctors.

I have had no problems within the medical community. I still have my birth name on all my id including health insurance ... sometimes I address the preferred name other times I don't. A lot of times the office it self catches on if they call me on the phone enough.

My regular dr knows and my chart still has my birth name but the head nurse I think is a gay guy and caught on and started calling me "he" and koop and then the other people in the office have picked it up.

At the hematology unit i've thought about addressing it mainly cause there are a lot of people that work there and i'm always getting new people and they are confused when I walk up and I just smile and say yes it's me.

Some people despite the name still assume i'm male and go boy your parents were cruel.

At the same place one of the nurses came up to draw my blood ... looked at me ... looked at the chart .... puts on this face like i'm not going to call you that and asks do you have a preferred name.

so far i have never had a bad experience ... most of my doctors are intriqued and ask some questions which i don't mind ... my biggest frustration is the moment something is wrong ... every medical professional and even people in my life that don't know much about T will go ... do you think it's the T?

[chefhmboyrd]

So a question for trans folks, particularly those who do not have their gender letters changed.

So my question is this: do you assume that when going to non-LGBTQ medical personnel that you'll face discrimination? I wonder if we set ourselves up by having this constant fear over our heads based on the stories we constantly hear (the horror stories) and because of the stories we don't hear (the fabulous accepting ones).

i have a fabulous accepting story.

i have been very fortunate. I don't worry about discrimination when i go places. i walk in like i own the place. smile nod speak to people. i think my attitude has a lot to do with whether or not i face any discrimination or fend off any unwanted comment.

i could pass before the T mostly, but people so rarely even look at you closely. i am an avid people watcher, and i don't notice things sometimes.

i guess if i wanted to look for discrimination, or take everything said out of context, or act like i am hiding something, it would be different. but i spent the better part of 40 years living someone else's life. I be Damned if someone is gonna piss in my wheaties now.....

i am andy
i am a man
maybe i am not like some other guys,
but what is normal? something i don't care to be....
@

[tuffboi29]

Hello again gentlemen...


Just a quick update on how things are goin for me.
I have come out to 5 different people in my life and was absolutely amazed att the responses I got...even the answers "Tuff...I could have told you that along time ago but I figured it was best for you to find out for yourself."

Once again...am i ALWAYS the last to know everything?GAH!!

Other than that, I had a long talk with me therapist and she has been wonderful as can be.She is in the process of setting me up with all the information I need and another therapist to begin my transitioning.

I feel more free and myself than I even have in my entire life and am looking forward to not only beginning this process, but just enjoying meself for a change.

For those of you that know me from the PTSD thread I would like to tell you that coming out with this has made the process of dealing with it so much easier as it was deffinitally intertwined with it.

Once again thank you all so much for the encouraging words.I will never be able to express just how much they mean to me.

[atomiczombie]

Hello again gentlemen...


Just a quick update on how things are goin for me.
I have come out to 5 different people in my life and was absolutely amazed att the responses I got...even the answers "Tuff...I could have told you that along time ago but I figured it was best for you to find out for yourself."

Once again...am i ALWAYS the last to know everything?GAH!!

Other than that, I had a long talk with me therapist and she has been wonderful as can be.She is in the process of setting me up with all the information I need and another therapist to begin my transitioning.

I feel more free and myself than I even have in my entire life and am looking forward to not only beginning this process, but just enjoying meself for a change.

For those of you that know me from the PTSD thread I would like to tell you that coming out with this has made the process of dealing with it so much easier as it was deffinitally intertwined with it.

Once again thank you all so much for the encouraging words.I will never be able to express just how much they mean to me.

Right on Tuff. Glad to hear your coming out has been such a positive experience. :)

[tuffboi29]

I'm finding it amazing how I have barely come out to myself about who I am and find myself getting called out on it by people I hardly know.
Tonight I got a ride home from a guy I've only met a few times and he was asking some very direct questions.By chance he figure me out rather quickly.Alot more quickly than I was comfortable with.
Is it that I am more comfortable with myself now that others are figuring this out?Was he just that good?Or was it always obvious to those around me and I was just so hidden in myself I refused to see it?
I don't know guys...I think I'm just a wee bit lost in my thoughts tonight.
Any comments on these thought would be greatly appreciated.Have any of you been lost in similar thoughts?

[Linus]

I'm finding it amazing how I have barely come out to myself about who I am and find myself getting called out on it by people I hardly know.
Tonight I got a ride home from a guy I've only met a few times and he was asking some very direct questions.By chance he figure me out rather quickly.Alot more quickly than I was comfortable with.
Is it that I am more comfortable with myself now that others are figuring this out?Was he just that good?Or was it always obvious to those around me and I was just so hidden in myself I refused to see it?
I don't know guys...I think I'm just a wee bit lost in my thoughts tonight.
Any comments on these thought would be greatly appreciated.Have any of you been lost in similar thoughts?


What do you mean by "getting called out"? Do you mean that he figured out that you were trans? Or that you were a guy?

Sometimes we are oblivous to the obvious. For example, my aunt knew I was more attracted to women than guys well before I did. :seeingstars: So it can happen. ;)

[theoddz]

We might have gotten the idea you were talking about restrooms and using the women's restroom from this post where you state you'd have to have more than peach fuzz to use the men's room


Dylan

I know I'm responding kind of late to this, but I know exactly where Jet's coming from with his remark.

There was a time before I started T and pre chest surgery where I didn't feel very comfy using either gendered restroom. I'd try to either find a unisex bathroom or hold it until I could or I'd hold it until I got to a private restroom. It's a horrible position to be in, but I think all of us have been there at one time.

I think Parker wasn't meaning that he'd "invade a women's restroom" at all. He just doesn't feel comfy using the men's room until he's a little further down the road of physical transitioning. For my part, I completely understand this. It's that "in between" spot that's so difficult.

Oh, and I'm not trying to put words in Parker's mouth. I'm just saying I understand what he meant and this is why. ;)

Theo...on the cell phone.

[tuffboi29]

What do you mean by "getting called out"? Do you mean that he figured out that you were trans? Or that you were a guy?

Sometimes we are oblivous to the obvious. For example, my aunt knew I was more attracted to women than guys well before I did. :seeingstars: So it can happen. ;)


Aye, he very much so figured out I am trans. And what amazed me more, was able to do it in just a few short questions, too.
He meant no harm or rudeness. In fact he was quite tactfull in his approach in asking.
I think I was just a wee bit unnervered he was able to pinpoint it so quickly.

[Linus]

Not a question but more of a rant.

I found out what's holding up the Birth Cert. Apparently when my dad re-adopted me, Wife #2 (he's on Wife #3 I believe) was added as my "mother". I didn't remember doing this but it's possible that at the time it made sense. (I think I did it because it'd make my dad happy). The problem is I know nothing about her. They said if I could find out her maiden name, that's all they'd need. If I can't get it, she's going to ask if the info I provided is enough (she said there are unique situations like this). I have asked her if there is a way I could get Wife #2 removed as my mother and get my mom put back in. I did email my dad, his sister and his brother in hopes that one of them can reply with the info. But we'll see.

This explains the brick wall I've been hitting. :(

[Corkey]

Not a question but more of a rant.

I found out what's holding up the Birth Cert. Apparently when my dad re-adopted me, Wife #2 (he's on Wife #3 I believe) was added as my "mother". I didn't remember doing this but it's possible that at the time it made sense. (I think I did it because it'd make my dad happy). The problem is I know nothing about her. They said if I could find out her maiden name, that's all they'd need. If I can't get it, she's going to ask if the info I provided is enough (she said there are unique situations like this). I have asked her if there is a way I could get Wife #2 removed as my mother and get my mom put back in. I did email my dad, his sister and his brother in hopes that one of them can reply with the info. But we'll see.

This explains the brick wall I've been hitting. :(

Have you thought of looking it up at the registrar's office? Their marriage certificate has to be on file.

[Linus]

The got married out of Province and they are now divorced. It'll take another 4-8 weeks (it's already getting annoying that I've had to wait this long -- nearly a year now). Additionally, its annoying that she's even on the BC.

[Linus]

Welp. Even though my dad won't speak to me, my aunt (my dad's sister) still does. And she looked up my grandfather's ancestry project, finding my step-mom's maiden name (spelling may not be totally accurate but.. ). It's a start!

[CamBAMF]

Hey Everybody!
I haven't been on in a while but I had a some what funny experience. When I started T a year ago I was working on my college campus. I didn't work over the winter, so this summer is the first time since beginning T that I had to look for a job. I got a part time job for the summer with the help of an ex-girlfriend. I haven't had a name change yet (I've just been strapped for cash) and all my documents say female. So right off the bat I told my managers what my deal was, all were okay if not a little curious, however policy for this particular establishment says I have to wear a name tag wit my birth name. Not a big deal, I work in the back and besides I'm not ashamed. So the other day I stop in to fill out a request off form and an employee I never met walks up and introduces herself. I tell her my birth name (figuering that's how people in here know me). Today she happened to be working the same shift as me and she explained that she was totally flabergasted by my name and had called up an ex-girlfriend of hers (who apparently is also transitioning) and explained that she honestly had no idea. I really wasn't too worried about finding a job, but I am totally surprised all the time by the overwhelming acceptance. It's been a pretty cool experience!

[The Oopster]

Hey Everybody!
I haven't been on in a while but I had a some what funny experience. When I started T a year ago I was working on my college campus. I didn't work over the winter, so this summer is the first time since beginning T that I had to look for a job. I got a part time job for the summer with the help of an ex-girlfriend. I haven't had a name change yet (I've just been strapped for cash) and all my documents say female. So right off the bat I told my managers what my deal was, all were okay if not a little curious, however policy for this particular establishment says I have to wear a name tag wit my birth name. Not a big deal, I work in the back and besides I'm not ashamed. So the other day I stop in to fill out a request off form and an employee I never met walks up and introduces herself. I tell her my birth name (figuering that's how people in here know me). Today she happened to be working the same shift as me and she explained that she was totally flabergasted by my name and had called up an ex-girlfriend of hers (who apparently is also transitioning) and explained that she honestly had no idea. I really wasn't too worried about finding a job, but I am totally surprised all the time by the overwhelming acceptance. It's been a pretty cool experience!

I have to present my drivers liscence all the time which still has the original gender marker and my birth name. Nobody every seems to even notice the F marker .. they just think my parents were cruel. I think my birth name is unique enough that they think it's Like some foreign name that can go both ways. I've even had them comment "oh you poor thing" to be given "that" name. Unless it's an over the phone thing .. they still call me sir. On the phone they are extra confused but don't have the visual to go by ... it's funny cause it's like they over emphasize ms. then.

[Gentle Tiger]

Hello Everyone. I've had some experiences since transitioning that I quite frankly while I thought I was prepared I clearly was not prepared for them. I kind of wish I had had an older transman of color (not necessarily in age) to tell me a few things in advance - not that I would have changed my mind but to prepare me, talk through them. I don't mean about trivial things like hair growing in odd places, or receding hairlines. I'm talking heavy things like what it really means to be a man in the world. How you will be perceived and treated; respected and disrespected, etc. after you transition.

Anybody else have experiences after transitioning that kind of made you have to regroup so to speak?

[Greyson]

Hello Everyone. I've had some experiences since transitioning that I quite frankly while I thought I was prepared I clearly was not prepared for them. I kind of wish I had had an older transman of color (not necessarily in age) to tell me a few things in advance - not that I would have changed my mind but to prepare me, talk through them. I don't mean about trivial things like hair growing in odd places, or receding hairlines. I'm talking heavy things like what it really means to be a man in the world. How you will be perceived and treated; respected and disrespected, etc. after you transition.

Anybody else have experiences after transitioning that kind of made you have to regroup so to speak?

Gentle Tiger, First, I want you to know, you are not alone. I recently attended a Queer 12 Step Conference and was one of the two panel members that spoke about Transitioning. Two POC Transmen came up afterwards to speak to me about the very same sort of things you posted. I too am a POC and it has been my experience that a Latino male is sometimes treated much differently than a female Latina. I realized this as a young child just watching the life experiences of my father, stepfather and brothers.

I don't believe I have been living in the world as a Transman as long as you have but I do have a lifetime of being perceived as a Latino man off and on. If you want to talk more of this, pm me. Thank you for bringing this reality to the attention of your fellow Trans brothers.

[Gentle Tiger]

Gentle Tiger, First, I want you to know, you are not alone. I recently attended a Queer 12 Step Conference and was one of the two panel members that spoke about Transitioning. Two POC Transmen came up afterwards to speak to me about the very same sort of things you posted. I too am a POC and it has been my experience that a Latino male is sometimes treated much differently than a female Latina. I realized this as a young child just watching the life experiences of my father, stepfather and brothers.

I don't believe I have been living in the world as a Transman as long as you have but I do have a lifetime of being perceived as a Latino man off and on. If you want to talk more of this, pm me. Thank you for bringing this reality to the attention of your fellow Trans brothers.

Hey Greyson,

Yes indeed it is different. I had already experienced the being watched when entering an expensive as a black female. And I knew what in a factual and feeling for and with those who told their stories. But I now there is another layer because I now I am actually living the experience myself in my skin.

I definitely know I'm not alone as I hear this from time to time talking with other guys. My latest encounter caused me to think about the communities I interact with and share there. So others would know and not be surprised if they had similar experiences.

Hold your heads up Brothers.
Malcolm

[The Oopster]

Hello Everyone. I've had some experiences since transitioning that I quite frankly while I thought I was prepared I clearly was not prepared for them. I kind of wish I had had an older transman of color (not necessarily in age) to tell me a few things in advance - not that I would have changed my mind but to prepare me, talk through them. I don't mean about trivial things like hair growing in odd places, or receding hairlines. I'm talking heavy things like what it really means to be a man in the world. How you will be perceived and treated; respected and disrespected, etc. after you transition.

Anybody else have experiences after transitioning that kind of made you have to regroup so to speak?

Hey Malcolm great to see you! Sorry that you have had some uncomfortable experiences as of late.

I think it is one thing to know that certain things exist and another to experience them. Sometimes I think all the knowledge in the world will prepare me but once I experience something for the first time I realize that nothing could prepare me.

I can't begin to know what it is like to be a male poc, however I have had experiences since my transition that throw me for a loop, are uncomfortable, and sometimes still are.

When i was perceived as female at night I was always cautious and if there was a man around extremely intentive of the fact and aware of my surroundings. It's still uncomfortable to now be the one perceived as a possible threat/danger. It's weird having to be concious of how my behavior in certain instances is now perceived totally different now that I'm seen as male instead of female.

Other examples include interacting with kids. I'm a huge flirt with kids and when I was perceived as female it never alerted anybodys "red" flags. Now that i'm seen as male people are more cautious.

I'm a messenger and often sit in my car waiting for the next job to come. Sometimes it's in residential areas and I'm still waiting for someone to call the cops thinking i'm a potential perpertrator.

A lot of these behaviors are understandable, in fact i've been the one of caution, but it's totally different to now be perceived as the one that could be a potential threat.

[Linus]

:happyjump: I just checked online and apparently my Birth Certificate has finally been approved and is on its way!! :cheer: FINALLY! Now I can go for the SIN card and Passport. Hopefully they will be quicker! :blink:

[Thinker]

:happyjump: I just checked online and apparently my Birth Certificate has finally been approved and is on its way!! :cheer: FINALLY! Now I can go for the SIN card and Passport. Hopefully they will be quicker! :blink:

That is so awesome! Congrats on that and good luck with the rest!!

[Thinker]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I don't know that I can answer really. I had some pretty deep roots in the community well before I decided to transition, so I just figure no one pays me any mind because of that.

If there is something more specific you want to ask (me), then please know I will give you an honest, thoughtful reply. I certainly want to help in any way I can.

[Thinker]

Thank you, Thinker. So, here, let me put you on the hotseat for a moment. Do you think you kind of got "a pass" here because you were so well known by people, and you were just kind of "Our Thinker" and didn't start out being "other" or "outsider" or even "unknown"?

I wonder how it looks to those who have transitioned prior to coming to the site or even afterwards, but aren't as well known or known at all?

Yeah, I think I probably did.

I remember back a gazillion years ago at the site where I first joined this community. A post-transition FTM joined up and starting chiming in here and there, and I remember thinking... "Who the eff is this guy? He's not a transman. He's here to be an ass and hit on femmes."

Heh heh... Needless to say, I was pretty insecure and relatively immature in a lot of ways back then. Now, I wasn't overtly cruel to this guy; but I did not go out of my way to make him feel welcome either. Keep in mind, too, that he stated directly that he was straight and never identified as butch. At that time in my life, that was all I needed to "not like him". Again...my insecurities and immaturity at play.

I realize that's just me and that I can't project that kind of behavior on to any other member here. But... ;) I suspect there might be one or two (or 80) members who would be as suspicious now as I was back then.....perhaps even offering up a less than warm reception to the newcomer.

I'm just guessing, but I think what probably drives it is wondering why a straight guy would join up at a queer site. Folks see that and get suspicious.......and protective. Think about it... We've already seen the question, "Why would a man want to be at a queer site?" If that's the overarching question when dealing with this man...the lens through which you view him.....then you (general you) aren't going to be completely open and welcoming.

[Liam]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I don't have a local BF community, however when I lived in Park County I was accepted and warmly welcomed by a community of women, and that has not changed, since I became Liam. I did not feel particularly welcomed when I came here, and I left for a few months after I signed up.

I don't know.

[Jet]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

It's difficult to be accepted. I've experienced this off site. As far as on line, I think its difficult because it seems you can't say a without being criticized or called on it some how. That doesn't have anything to do with gender, it's just difficult here.

[Gentle Tiger]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I will give this some thought and then respond.

[Jet]

Yes, Jet -- You and I have talked about this before that you are often surprised at what folks get upset about. Overall, do you feel welcomed as a man here, even if you and I have to cross swords sometimes? ;)

No, not really. I can't expect to be validated based on what people think of me.
Masculinity comes from me—from the inside. Am I welcomed as a man by others? No, I don't think so. Except for fellow FTMs.
They are the ones who get it. Thanks for asking.

[atomiczombie]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

Thanks for asking this June, it shows that you do care and that is appreciated.

I think that on the dash site I didn't feel as wanted and affirmed as a transguy, but I didn't really talk about it as much or come out as trans on that site. However, I do feel more welcome and included here on BFP because Dusa and Jack have gone out of their way to let everyone know that we transguys are welcome. That makes a big difference to me. I know that there are members here who have issues with us being here, and that isn't something that surprises me, but the leadership here, including the mods, has been positive for the most part. Thinker becoming a mod is a big affirmation of transguys being welcome and included, to me. I am impressed by that.

As for MTFs, I cannot speak to that as much. I am not an MTF and I don't experience the site through that lens. I personally haven't seen MTFs being bashed on this site, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I do hope to see people who id as MTF come in here and speak to that.

Yes, there are unwelcoming things that go on here at BFP. I think it depends on the person and where we are in our lives and transition (or not), how it impacts us. I am just not someone who takes things as personally as some people do which, as I have said elsewhere, doesn't mean that they aren't personal. I guess how we approach transphobia here on BFP is in someways the same as what is needed with respect to sexism, misogyny, homophobia, racism, and all the other prejudicial attitudes which can tear us apart. I think most of us don't want a site like that, so we all have to do the work to educate ourselves and really listen to each other.

I am not personally going to be driven off by a few people saying things that I find offensive or ignorant about transpeople. That is a personal stance for me, and I think I am able to do that because I know that no matter what someone else says about me, or people like me, that I am a good guy with a big heart and I deserve a place at the table like anyone else. I refuse to allow anyone to take that away from me. As long as Dusa and Jack say I am welcome, then I like this place and many of the people here and I am staying. :)

[The Oopster]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I don't know that I can answer really. I had some pretty deep roots in the community well before I decided to transition, so I just figure no one pays me any mind because of that.

If there is something more specific you want to ask (me), then please know I will give you an honest, thoughtful reply. I certainly want to help in any way I can.

Thank you, Thinker. So, here, let me put you on the hotseat for a moment. Do you think you kind of got "a pass" here because you were so well known by people, and you were just kind of "Our Thinker" and didn't start out being "other" or "outsider" or even "unknown"?

I wonder how it looks to those who have transitioned prior to coming to the site or even afterwards, but aren't as well known or known at all?

I feel like I'm in pretty much the same boat as thinker.

Yet i know that there are other people that have been in the community then trasitioned that haven't felt welcomed.

It's hard I know i've seen non welcoming stuff at times but I guess I've always seen it more as a certain persons personality and not as something from the community as a whole. Unfortunately someone new won't know that "that is just unfortunately how so and so acts."

We all have people that we see them post and we either know to stay out of the thread or just wait on the edge of our seat for the drama to spew forth. Unfortunately some people know how to insight drama and still stay within the TOS.

I guess the only way I can think of helping out in those situations is for people to give the newcomer assurance privately also. Sometimes addressing within the threads just helps keep the other person baited. (I just thought of this ... I just usually avoid all together. So thanks for asking because now i'll be more aware of how to support that new person.)

I feel like i'm rambling so i hope i said something ... darn heat!

[Jet]

Okay, so feel free not to answer this, but do you think that only other FTM's see you as male? Because I see you as male, and I am pretty sure others do as well. Just because I get irritated, doesn't mean you're not a guy.

Well again, being irritated has nothing to do with my identity as a male. I don't view it like that anyway. We just had different views. I'm male, FTM and I'm the only one who cares about that. Notice how i stick with about 5 threads and that's all. I keep my distance and I'm good with that.

I don't like discussions or debates or tearing a thought apart to where there's nothing left. I'm not here because I expect comraderie or community or finding a partner. I just post my thoughts and get out without any consensus on what people believe as far as my male ID.. It just doesn't matter.

[The Oopster]

Thank you, Koop (Still have to call you that!)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. And wondering why some men feel really welcome here, and others don't. Kind of like I wonder how some Butches, female ID'd or not feel welcome or not.

I know some of it comes down to personality, but I also wonder if it drills down further to perceptions. Too male, too loud, too something. I wonder if it's not the Gender, but the person, how we (all of us) interact with each other that makes the difference about how welcome or welcoming people feel.



I'm glad i have this site. If somebody said something about my not belonging here it probably wouldn't reach me ... I have an automatic mute button on and i'm not going anywhere.

I've said it before that I stay here to give back. For a lot of us the path to who we are is a long slow path. I had a lot of stuff burried that needed to be uncovered in layers. I don't know who I'd be today if Nick, malcom, mike, krystal, and mike hadn't been around to be examples for me.

I was able to look at this layer of me because they were there. They gave me the freedom and strength to look at something that was soooooo burried. Yes there are ftm sites but I would never have thought of going to them because I was so disconnected from that part of me. In fact just going to a butch femme site was a total fluke because I had no clue what that meant.

I hope I always keep coming here or to a site like this. I want to be the Mike, Mike, Malcolm, krystal, or Nick in somebody else's life.

Recently when looking up information for surgery I went to a ftm site. Reflecting on my experience with that site, I think part of why a person feels welcomed or not welcomed has to do with their personal expectations.

I posted a few times on that site and felt very unwelcomed. I'm sure I was welcomed but people just didn't respond in the manner that I'm use to. People weren't sharing their experience, just resources. I was appreciative of the resources but a bit taken back that people weren't sharing their experience. If every place I went just referred me to another spot ... I just would end up with one big spinning head. All that made me feel unwelcomed.

Since I have other resources where I feel I get what I'm looking for I haven't been back. I'm sure if I stayed longer I would find a home on that site. If i didn't have support in other avenues I might have tried harder.

For me the window for trying something out online is even much shorter then in real time ... if I don't connect right away I'm gone. I wonder if some of what we see isn't that.

People come in looking for something specific don't feel it and are gone.

[Linus]

Su-weet! *flashes his new BC* They couriered it. And I'm glad I asked for the Long Form (now I have the details I missed!). w00t!

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I think it's hard for us to say whether it's easier or harder for FTMs and/or MTFs. I think each have their own challenges in their own right and, certainly for online, it's more about what the person themselves brings to the community.

My personal experience outside (RT) has been somewhat positive thus far except for the occasional "one-off". Being told I was traitor wasn't pleasant but it was their point of view (fear?). Since my life as being "butch" was actually short, I wonder if sometimes people do make assumptions about my past (mostly those who haven't met me) and who I am (I totally recognize that this is my thing and have to address it myself).

There is a part of me that wonders if we get our "backs up" before issues happen because we hear about all the horrible things/thoughts that others "might" have about us and it makes us defensive before we even get to the table.

I don't know if this helps but I was curious what context these questions arose out of?

[theoddz]

Congratulations on the BC!

This has come up for me personally out of the numerous conversations around privilege and identifying misogyny and misandry as well as sexism and Transphobia. I realized that I was not seeing some things in the same ways, so I am being introspective and dragging you all along for the ride. It seems like for me, as a Femme that there is inclusivity and we are welcoming, but that's my lens, and clearly there is something going on. I don't know if it's just a "People" thing, how we relate to one another, or if it is something more widespread and deep. Like, if someone posts something ass-hatish, is that systemic, or just an individual not being very highly evolved (Not Transfolk, but all of us).

YES Linus!!! I'm echoing June'y here and want to congratulate you on this milestone!!! Here Here!!! :clap:

I finally received my corrected BC from the State of Florida a couple of weeks ago, and I finally feel that it is mine (does that make sense??). I never before felt that my birth certificate was ever really mine before now, but it sure feels that way now. Both the name and gender marker was changed and with less fuss and muss than I had anticipated, given that we're talking about Florida here. :|

Now, to address June's comments/questions, I, personally, haven't really experienced any real negativity or "rejection", as it were, from the community at large here. I do feel welcomed here, though my filter is probably different from the other guys'. In fact, I feel more welcomed here than I felt at the other site because Jack and Dusa have made it a very strong and outward point that we do have an accepting community here, and we do have a place at this table. From the time this site was opened, that point was made crystal clear.

Now, that said, there are always going to be certain people who are just not going to accept trans folk, no matter what we do, or how hard we try to open their minds. That's okay. Mother taught me at a very young age that "you're not going to always like everyone, and everyone is not always going to like you". I've never thought that you (the generic "you") could legislate or change people's feelings if they didn't want to be changed, and you certainly can't be held responsible for everyone's feelings. Oh, I've witnessed the rows here as certain members have pounded their fists, called out certain obnoxious behaviors and demanded respect, while others just refused to give, and/or became defensive, then turned to attack. I think that's where the "drama spew" that Koop is referring to comes in. Those are the threads I tend to stay out of, unless I just can't help myself and want to drop a comment or two and dash out. Ultimately, I do tend to avoid the hot 'n nasty volatile threads for that reason. Life's too short, yanno, to spend energy trying to "educate" people who, for one reason or another, just won't get it. You can always tell the ones who are trying to understand a concept, versus those who are just trying to be "shit disturbers".

I take people one at a time, based on the individual and the behaviors. I think that, despite some of the nasty mean stuff I've seen, and the "heated" discussions, that this community is a good and welcoming place for me. It's been suggested, by some I hold very dear, that I need to "talk more" here. Thing is, I'm a quirky, strange and extremely introverted fellow and I like to hear/read the opinions of other people. That's how I learn....from listening. I found a great deal of support and encouragement here from other members and they probably don't even realize that they might have posted something here that may have been the only smile I got all day.

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.

Thank you, June'y, for your interest in this, and for all of your hard work to make this site a welcoming and accepting place for all of the plethora of varied personalities. I certainly feel welcomed here. :winky::thumbsup:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Jet]

Jet, I was thinking about this, and I know from a lot of your posts that you say "I'll never find someone" or "I don't have any expectations", but I think that because you do keep showing up and interacting, even if it's limited, you must be looking for some kind of connection to community, and I'm glad. You may not use this site like others do, but there must be something otherwise, you could go to an art site, kind of like I could go to a Shih Tzu site, you know?

Hang in there :)


It's an outlet for the art. And you're right, I don't have any expectations.

[little man]

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

i think it likely depends on where you're at and who you're with. this site, in particular, has been extremely welcoming to all from the get go. i think for folks like thinker, koop, theo and myself...we were readily accepted here because of relationship and history nurtured on the dash. with that groundwork laid, i think it's likely more welcoming to new guys here. i suspect the same is true for MtF folks who have migrated here. (i can't really speak to it with any authority, though).

so far as r/t communities go...well, i'm not all that socially adept (as you know, june). like theo, i'm fairly introverted and don't really do groups well. i've lived in different parts of the country and have noticed some places are more open/accepting of B-F dynamics than others. being back in the midwest, i do recall feeling like a bit of a pariah for being "so butch" prior to transition. people who knew me didn't care so much about that and just took it as a part of who i was. i haven't really run into many folks i've known here since transitioning. the few i have seen have been very welcoming and accepting (read as not surprised). i haven't really been out to any queer social space since coming back here. i'm not sure how i'd be taken there. the way i've seen MtFs treated in r/t in this area has been 'tolerated'. i think it also comes down to knowing that person as an individual.

so far as disparity between levels of acceptance between MtF and Ftm? i suspect we guys have an easier time of it in general. i think that's based on appearance and ability to blend in rather than stand out. i suspect that MtFs who don't pass easily or well fall into the drag queen category for many folks. i stand by previous statements about people being lazy and not looking to expand their understanding of anything or anyone outside their little worlds.

how to remedy this? awareness, of course. but, how do you make people interested enough in things outside their realm of experience to effect change? (speaking to r/t rather than this site.



Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June


is this helpful at all? or did i just sidestep your whole point? i do ramble....

[little man]

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.



~Theo~ :bouquet:

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

[atomiczombie]

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. So June, I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

[Jet]

(Above)
Precisely why I don't partake in many threads and why I don't feel that "sense of community." I don't like many topics or the way people treat each other.

[Jess]

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

So June,Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

I have so many questions of a very personal nature that fall right into place with this current conversation, yet like Jet, it feels like sometimes if you have any thoughts/ questions other than those that flow along with the vocal majority , it is wrong to do so. I am trying to learn a new way of asking questions and it is very new and uncomfortable for me to do so. I am grateful to have found the patience and willingness to put myself out there again in order to perhaps gain more patience and tolerance and further understanding.

Frankly, I have not seen this site/ community being unwelcoming to transfolk. I believe very strongly that not unlike the brilliant article Linus posted recently, we all come here with our own set ideas and even when faced with new "facts" we are ( or can be) reluctant to change. It doesn't help when questions ( even asked out of confusion/ frustration) are met with accusations of an "ism". That just doesn't help. It may be "true" or informative, but it does nothing for community building.

I am no longer sure how to ask questions without the risk of being taken wrong when I ask "why do_____" . I appreciate the very frank discussion I see going on here and would like to continue reading as like any other topic I get more out of many voices as opposed to a singular chorus singing the same tune.
Thank you all.
Jess

[Gentle Tiger]

I have been thinking about June's question and of course I don't have a hard and fast answer. I have to say that I think offline it is harder for my sisters (MTF) because their physical transition is harder, especially if they choose not to take or cannot afford hormonal therapy and surgery. I get flack from fellow transmen when I say this but our sisters cannot hide their height, hands, etc. And I watch how they are treated both within and outside of the lbtq (and the rest of the letters yet to come) community. And it irritates me.

That is not to say that guys don't have their share of challenges. I just love it when I am referred to as male because they know that is my preference only to discover that they really still see me as she because I wasn't born male or because I made the decision not to have lower surgery or because my voice isn't as deep as other guys, etc. etc. And I love it when I get into conversations where (for those who choose to be real and honest) say that it's like we (FTMs) have betrayed women by "choosing to become men".

As for online, I think in a setting where the sign on the site or thread door is clearly marked I think it can be challenging for both MTF and FTM at times. We make a choice coming into a butch femme forum if that is not how we identify. And if we make that choice we have to put on our big boy and big girl pants and accept the fact that not everyone is going to want to play with us. To me that's when we simply find folks who enjoy playing with us or create our own sandbox to play in and press on!

But I do get annoyed when a thread opens that is for say femmes, and an MTF participates. And folks have issues because she participates because they see her responding not as their fellow sister who identifies as femme but as an other or as an intruder. I have seen and heard this. They don't understand why a person born male would transition (however they choose) to female "only to be with a woman". And rather than educate themselves, ask questions in the appropriate setting and respectfully, they make the decision she does not belong. And the responses are clearly express their feelings on the subject.

But I also get annoyed with my brothers who identify as male, and even straight male who insist on being in a say "For Women Only" space. If the sign clearly says "Girls only - No Boys/Men Allowed" then we need to respect their wishes and keep our happy selves out of their space. This site was not presented to me as woman only space. Therefore, I look around and find or create a sandbox to play in or tree to sit under. If it were a "whatever only" space and I am not that, you will not see me. Why? I respect the sign. So there are certain threads that I don't post in. If the thread is for hearing from Femmes on a subject, you won't see me posting. I am not a femme so my voice does not need to be heard there. I'm not going to rant about not being welcome. I will be a mature human being, remember it's not all about me and go post in the Questions thread or something. I know I'm welcome based on the description of the site. Anyone having problems with my being here can just go sit down somewhere and take a nap! Same with a thread calling for say those who are white to post. I am not white. So, guess what! I will not be posting. But if the thread is for anyone, I or my sister should be able to post without dealing with someone's ignorance.

But I go back to a point I made earlier. We know we're going to have to deal with ignorance because that is life! This site is no different. So you teach where you can, and you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving when they are not receptive or when you quite frankly just don't feel like being the teacher that day.

I think this a long enough essay for June. *smirk*

[atomiczombie]

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling. :D

[Jess]

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling. :D


AZ, I do get what you are saying about not knowing whether or not to go in and say something in a thread if you see an active "ism" happening. I really do, because I get the same "icky" feelings when I see certain things also.

While trying not to use Dylan as a specific example, I have seen quite a few folks get "bashed" or as some folks have called it "dog piled" for expressing feelings other than what were of the general tone of those conversations. I think it is really important for me to try to exercise an old cliche' of "principles over personalities" in these situations. Meaning, I ( for example in That conversation in That thread) cannot assume that Dylan was being the spokesperson for every transman or male on this site and cannot base my opinion of the trans experience or lens that transfolk view the world through based upon the statements or actions of ONE person. No more than I can see one person being the spokesperson for lesbians, people of color, differently abled, etc. Does that make sense? I personally have to remember to look at the topic and not at the person(s) posting.

I think what I need to do when I see something icky happening is to assess exactly what it is that is icky about it and perhaps try to address THAT instead of necessarily addressing the person who made the statement. By that, I mean not to engage in the back and forth bantering that has a tendency to end up being name calling and very hurt feelings and usually someone getting banned/ timed out or left feeling ostracized.

Like you , when I see a thread that is "for____ only", I have to figure out if I do have a place in that convo and will engage or not based on that. It is my choice to read it and sit on my feelings or read it and perhaps discuss those feelings with someone if they are really bugging me. I do not feel like I need to monitor those threads for something they "might" say that is anti-"me". That said, I do realize that the sexism/misogyny thread was open to all, as was/is the sexism/misandry thread. I think they are very important conversations to have with everyone because like so many have pointed out, all too often the sexism is often so entrenched in us that it becomes invisible ( unless it isn't there).

I think THIS conversation, that June started is important for everyone to be able to read also, because of the very open nature of responses happening. It really helps me understand the very different and intimate places that transmen are coming from in viewing their particular place in this community. Which to date ( I hate admitting this) has been something I have struggled understanding. I think it is just as important for someone like me who sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't, to be able to ask questions and listen and take part without the fear of being judged or attacked, because frankly, there are quite a few folks like me who need this very type of engagement.

I appreciate your responding in the way you did, by giving examples of your feelings and checking to see if I am indeed hearing you. I hope that I am likewise showing that yes, I do hear you. Your response wasn't snarky or defensive and I really do appreciate that you took the time to read and hear me.

Will return to listening.
Thanks, Jess

[Jet]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

[Liam]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

I think it is difficult for some, because they have always been comfortable in the bodies they were born with.

[Mister Bent]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

[Jet]

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

[Mister Bent]

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

[Jet]

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

[Mister Bent]

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

I did a lot of work to get to this place, Jet. I'd be lying if I said I lived with no anger, or if I never had to turn to a friend or lover to help me remain on track.

I can't tell you how to live your life, I can only share what works for me, and hope that maybe somewhere in there you can find something that might serve you.

I understand feeling isolated, alone, misunderstood, unseen. I think most here do.

[Linus]

I don't see transitioning as a betrayal. I will admit to being perplexed by it sometimes. When I came out, I knew about Transwomen, and that made sense to me -- "Who doesn't want to be a woman?" And I understood, as much as I was able to about feeling you didn't fit the body you were in and needing to change the exterior to match the interior. When I first became aware of Transmen, initially, that was harder because "I" didn't feel male at all. See, and this is how "I" and I suspect others feel because "We" don't feel male. But it is not about "Us", it is about "You". When I was finally able to ascribe the same internal logic I used for Transwomen, I was able to move forward a bit. One of the things I know is Transphobic behavior for me, is the worry and judgement I feel when I see so many people doing it. I worry that they haven't gotten the counseling or medical attention needed or that they may not be aware of the long term effects of Testosterone on their bodies. I know that it is not for me, June to worry about, my responsibility is to open my mind and heart to people, regardless of how they identify and let them worry about themselves and hope they have a good support system.


June, can I ask something: do you think your transphobia is based more in misandry than transphobia itself? It seems that you are ok with the path that MTFs take but uncomfortable with that of FTMs and it makes me wonder if it's a bit more of misandry than transphobia at work here.

I think it's hard to describe to someone what it's like to be transsexual. It would be like you describing to me what it's like to be whole with one's gender. It's a foreign concept, I believe, for many of us.



There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

Mister Bent, agreed. I think the biggest issue with those that think this is a mental illness is that they use it against us, denying us medical attention, help, rights, etc. I also agree on the concept of the burden to help someone address it is by showing understanding, compassion for others. The idea of "treat others as you want to be treated", even if they cannot do it. By responding to someone in anger, it does nothing, IMO, other than get them more angry and less likely to listen.


To those just reading: this thread is for trans individuals who need support but also for non-trans individuals who want to understand and learn. Many of us are willing to answer whatever questions are asked for those that want to understand or be educated.

[atomiczombie]

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us. :)

[Jet]

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us. :)

transphobia, physical and verbal abuse: Doesn't matter. They're both shit. And I've had my share. As such, I won't get close to anyone.
Not femmes, not transguys, not family, no one. Thanks for the kind note AZ.

[Linus]

Thank you, Linus. I know you started this back in November, but this is scary because I know I am going to fuck up at some point and hurt someones feelings, and that's not my intent at all. I'm not making excuses in advance, I am just acknowleging that it might happen, and I'm worried.

As long as you recognize it when it happens and then listen afterwards, that's all that matters.

[sweetfemme247]

transphobia, physical and verbal abuse: Doesn't matter. They're both shit. And I've had my share. As such, I won't get close to anyone.
Not femmes, not transguys, not family, no one. Thanks for the kind note AZ.

I am sorry you went through that, I hope someday you will let someone get close to you.

[theoddz]

I'll never forget what my dear ex said to me one time about transwomen....."It's not right. It's like the ultimate voyeurism perpetrated on (cis??) women."

I had to do an awful lot of processing, reconciling and forgiving to overcome the myriad of feelings I had about that statement. I still am at odds with the hurtful feelings I have about it, but I've made a lot of progress during the last 8 years since she's been gone.

There were only two topics we ever discussed that made me wonder if she and I were ever really good people. The trans issue, particularly against transwomen was one and my sense of American pride and patriotism was the other (this was based on a remark she made to me following the 9/11 tragedy).

People come and go in our lives. I truly believe that they do so in order that we all might learn and grow from each other. As much as I loved my ex, and as horribly sad and lost as I felt after she walked out, I realize now how much I've grown and evolved. I've even had the courage to get to know, accept and love myself....and now I'm able to live my life fully and truthfully.

Parker, my friend, I really hope you don't shut us, your friends, out. I think you're going to find your perfect love one of these days, and you know what?? She won't change you. You will change you. When love is healthy and right, it lifts you up and brings power to you....power like you've never known it before. You will move mountains in your life, do things you never dreamed you could do, and then everything will make sense. I wish this for you. I wish you a strong, healthy, steadfast and devoted love. I wish you strength. (Maybe I'm taking things for granted here a bit, but I have a strange feeling, in a very good way, about you. I think the best....the very best....is yet to come for you. You are on the right road, my brother.) :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Jet]

I'll never forget what my dear ex said to me one time about transwomen....."It's not right. It's like the ultimate voyeurism perpetrated on (cis??) women."

I had to do an awful lot of processing, reconciling and forgiving to overcome the myriad of feelings I had about that statement. I still am at odds with the hurtful feelings I have about it, but I've made a lot of progress during the last 8 years since she's been gone.

There were only two topics we ever discussed that made me wonder if she and I were ever really good people. The trans issue, particularly against transwomen was one and my sense of American pride and patriotism was the other (this was based on a remark she made to me following the 9/11 tragedy).

People come and go in our lives. I truly believe that they do so in order that we all might learn and grow from each other. As much as I loved my ex, and as horribly sad and lost as I felt after she walked out, I realize now how much I've grown and evolved. I've even had the courage to get to know, accept and love myself....and now I'm able to live my life fully and truthfully.

Parker, my friend, I really hope you don't shut us, your friends, out. I think you're going to find your perfect love one of these days, and you know what?? She won't change you. You will change you. When love is healthy and right, it lifts you up and brings power to you....power like you've never known it before. You will move mountains in your life, do things you never dreamed you could do, and then everything will make sense. I wish this for you. I wish you a strong, healthy, steadfast and devoted love. I wish you strength. (Maybe I'm taking things for granted here a bit, but I have a strange feeling, in a very good way, about you. I think the best....the very best....is yet to come for you. You are on the right road, my brother.) :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Thanks Theo. You've always been a champ, and I'm grateful. i don't want anybody in my life. I'm a loner and it'll stay that way. at 53 I'm squaring away with this. No body gets close, Theo..nobody. But you're a kind and good-hearted man. I appreciate your input. Just so you know.

[atomiczombie]

Ok so I have been on Androgel for 10 1/2 weeks and since I started I have found it harder to go to sleep. Has anyone else had this issue? I already have sleep issues and I am not at all sure it is related to the T, I am just curious if there is a connection.

[The Oopster]

Ok so I have been on Androgel for 10 1/2 weeks and since I started I have found it harder to go to sleep. Has anyone else had this issue? I already have sleep issues and I am not at all sure it is related to the T, I am just curious if there is a connection.

when do you apply it? I know my shots if I take them too late in the day i can't settle down. If I remember correctly I had the same effects with the creme so only did it in the mornings ... If I forgot to put in on before noon I just waited to the next day because it wasn't worth the sleep problems

[atomiczombie]

when do you apply it? I know my shots if I take them too late in the day i can't settle down. If I remember correctly I had the same effects with the creme so only did it in the mornings ... If I forgot to put in on before noon I just waited to the next day because it wasn't worth the sleep problems

I apply it first thing when I wake up.

[The Oopster]

I apply it first thing when I wake up.

it still could bother you I just didn't notice it maybe cause i don't have a lot of energy in the mornings to begin with so if anything it maybe brought me up to normal speed, but by night i didn't feel it

[Linus]

Welp. I ordered a new STP to try, STP-Fitz (http://www.stp-fitz.org/servlet/StoreFront). So far, the experience has been stellar. I received a notification that it was to be sent out today (I had let him know I'm moving at the end of August and wanted to be sure I'd receive it before then).

The design is interesting and may be better for me. If this doesn't work, I may resort to the "coffee lid" option. I just cannot get the medicine spoon option to work for me.

[Alpha Dog]

Linus, I got mine a few weeks back - wow what a difference - it's perfect. I'm still working on the best method to pack and use with ease. I'm modifying a packing strap that I think will work just fine - it'll make it easier to stand at a urinal and place the "nipple" without detection.

[tuffboi29]

Hey guys I have a couple questions and knew this would be the place to ask.
I'm getting ready to invest in a pack and a binder-t-shirt.
Ok...question #1...the soft-pack im looking at comes w a sack option..BUT...it says it's to be held onto your boxers with a safety pin.The thought unsettles me as I have this great talent to majickly unhook the saftey pins and stick myself.(It never fails.) And i really don't want a harness.
Sould I just invest into more boxerbriefs?
Second question...The binder shirts...Do I still need to wear a bra if I'm wearing the binder? I'm looking for ANY excuse to not have to wear those torture devices anymore.

Thanks guys!!!


Oh!!! And before I forget...I start therapy on August 11th. I could dance I'm so excited.

[atomiczombie]

Hey guys I have a couple questions and knew this would be the place to ask.
I'm getting ready to invest in a pack and a binder-t-shirt.
Ok...question #1...the soft-pack im looking at comes w a sack option..BUT...it says it's to be held onto your boxers with a safety pin.The thought unsettles me as I have this great talent to majickly unhook the saftey pins and stick myself.(It never fails.) And i really don't want a harness.
Sould I just invest into more boxerbriefs?
Second question...The binder shirts...Do I still need to wear a bra if I'm wearing the binder? I'm looking for ANY excuse to not have to wear those torture devices anymore.

Thanks guys!!!


Oh!!! And before I forget...I start therapy on August 11th. I could dance I'm so excited.

Hey Tuff, right on. Therapy is an important step. Glad to hear you are making progress.

Good news! You don't wear a bra with a binder. The binder replaces that. Bad news, sometimes binders can hurt and dig in if you have one that doesn't fit right. Be careful about getting the right fit.

As for the packer, I would say sew the pouch into your boxers. Just buy several pouches, they can't be that expensive, and sew them to all your boxers.

Hope this helps. :)

Drew

[EnderD_503]

Hey guys I have a couple questions and knew this would be the place to ask.
I'm getting ready to invest in a pack and a binder-t-shirt.
Ok...question #1...the soft-pack im looking at comes w a sack option..BUT...it says it's to be held onto your boxers with a safety pin.The thought unsettles me as I have this great talent to majickly unhook the saftey pins and stick myself.(It never fails.) And i really don't want a harness.
Sould I just invest into more boxerbriefs?
Second question...The binder shirts...Do I still need to wear a bra if I'm wearing the binder? I'm looking for ANY excuse to not have to wear those torture devices anymore.

Thanks guys!!!


Oh!!! And before I forget...I start therapy on August 11th. I could dance I'm so excited.

I'd say save the time and effort and just invest in more boxerbriefs, it may even save you a few bucks depending on what you buy...but then I'm biased towards boxerbriefs as more comfortable than boxers, so if you really prefer the boxers go with atomic's suggestion.

Atomic's right on about getting the sizing right. Are you going to be picking it up in a local store or online? If you can get into a local shop that sells them instead, that would be your best option in finding one that fits properly. Even with the sizing charts you can end up with one that doesn't fit over your shoulders or something, which is what happened the first time I bought one (apparently I suck at measuring my own shoulders), though luckily they let me try it on in the store so I didn't have to go home to find that out.

Congrats on starting therapy, btw

[Thinker]

Ok...question #1...the soft-pack im looking at comes w a sack option..BUT...it says it's to be held onto your boxers with a safety pin.The thought unsettles me as I have this great talent to majickly unhook the saftey pins and stick myself.(It never fails.) And i really don't want a harness.
Sould I just invest into more boxerbriefs?

My solution, for what it's worth... And I give my wife full credit for this brilliant idea!

I wear briefs. Now picture the pouch/opening part of briefs.

I use a piece of iron-on seaming tape to close off the inside opening.

On the outside opening, I iron on a small piece of velcro Fabric Fusion.

Put on your drawers, open the velcro closure, insert your packer, and close it up.

The velcro closure keeps it from popping out the front, and the seaming tape closure keeps it from coming out inside your underwear. The whole thing keeps my packer off the bathroom floor (yes, this has happened more than once).

Note:

**Make sure you get IRON-ON......not sew-in kind.
**Take your time and do it right, and they'll last for a long time.
**I'm not a big fan of Fruit of the Loom briefs for this. The pouch part isn't quite wide enough.
**Both iron-on products can be found at Walmart.

Packing has become a lot less stressful for me since fixin' up my undies this way! Happy packing!!

[The Oopster]

My solution, for what it's worth... And I give my wife full credit for this brilliant idea!

I wear briefs. Now picture the pouch/opening part of briefs.

I use a piece of iron-on seaming tape to close off the inside opening.

On the outside opening, I iron on a small piece of velcro Fabric Fusion.

Put on your drawers, open the velcro closure, insert your packer, and close it up.

The velcro closure keeps it from popping out the front, and the seaming tape closure keeps it from coming out inside your underwear. The whole thing keeps my packer off the bathroom floor (yes, this has happened more than once).

Note:

**Make sure you get IRON-ON......not sew-in kind.
**Take your time and do it right, and they'll last for a long time.
**I'm not a big fan of Fruit of the Loom briefs for this. The pouch part isn't quite wide enough.
**Both iron-on products can be found at Walmart.

Packing has become a lot less stressful for me since fixin' up my undies this way! Happy packing!!

Thanks thinker,

I had wonder how well the iron-on stuff would work for this, already have some.

Just don't know why I hadn't even tried ... go figure.

[TenderKnight]

I usually use boxer briefs without a seam in front with my packy.. here is a link to a site with some picts of what I'm talking about: http://www.urbanbody.com/designer/Clever+Underwear

Not promotting that site, lol.. Just want to give an example.. I guess the best place to find this type of undies would be online or at a "gay boy" store. Most of these undies have a built in pouch so that someone's junk is all cushy and up front.. The cut in back also makes your butt look FANtastic.. lol

I also found these combo athletic supporter/brief at wal-mart a few years back.. that works great.. Jocks with the opening for the cup.. This all helps keep your junk in place, although, the gay boy briefs should be snug and you are still on the loose when you have to use the bathroom..

Just my input :)

-Tony

[Thinker]

I just love it. I had kind of given up on packing just because it was a pain to keep track of the damn thing......especially when going to the restroom.

I thought about jocks and specialty packer socks, but I really didn't want to add another layer.....even if it was just another waistband.

Also, I don't have any sort of strong yearning to pee in a urinal; so this type of set up works well for me. That may change one day; but for now, I'm all set.

Thanks thinker,

I had wonder how well the iron-on stuff would work for this, already have some.

Just don't know why I hadn't even tried ... go figure.

I usually use boxer briefs without a seam in front with my packy.. here is a link to a site with some picts of what I'm talking about: http://www.urbanbody.com/designer/Clever+Underwear

Not promotting that site, lol.. Just want to give an example.. I guess the best place to find this type of undies would be online or at a "gay boy" store. Most of these undies have a built in pouch so that someone's junk is all cushy and up front.. The cut in back also makes your butt look FANtastic.. lol

I also found these combo athletic supporter/brief at wal-mart a few years back.. that works great.. Jocks with the opening for the cup.. This all helps keep your junk in place, although, the gay boy briefs should be snug and you are still on the loose when you have to use the bathroom..

Just my input :)

-Tony

[tuffboi29]

Hi again guys...


This is what I have goin on so far...

The package has been packaged and is on its way. LMAO

Luckily I have a seemtress for a GF and showed her the suggestion for the boxerbriefs and she said no problem.

I have also made a mental note...junk on the bathroom floor isn't a good thing. :|

The "urban" site was AWESOME!!! Thanks!!!

And also a HUGE thanks to everyone for their suggestion, comments and support. I would be at a bit of a loss with out it.

[Stearns]

My solution, for what it's worth... And I give my wife full credit for this brilliant idea!

I wear briefs. Now picture the pouch/opening part of briefs.

I use a piece of iron-on seaming tape to close off the inside opening.

On the outside opening, I iron on a small piece of velcro Fabric Fusion.

Put on your drawers, open the velcro closure, insert your packer, and close it up.

The velcro closure keeps it from popping out the front, and the seaming tape closure keeps it from coming out inside your underwear. The whole thing keeps my packer off the bathroom floor (yes, this has happened more than once).

Note:

**Make sure you get IRON-ON......not sew-in kind.
**Take your time and do it right, and they'll last for a long time.
**I'm not a big fan of Fruit of the Loom briefs for this. The pouch part isn't quite wide enough.
**Both iron-on products can be found at Walmart.

Packing has become a lot less stressful for me since fixin' up my undies this way! Happy packing!!

I usually use boxer briefs without a seam in front with my packy.. here is a link to a site with some picts of what I'm talking about: http://www.urbanbody.com/designer/Clever+Underwear

Not promotting that site, lol.. Just want to give an example.. I guess the best place to find this type of undies would be online or at a "gay boy" store. Most of these undies have a built in pouch so that someone's junk is all cushy and up front.. The cut in back also makes your butt look FANtastic.. lol

I also found these combo athletic supporter/brief at wal-mart a few years back.. that works great.. Jocks with the opening for the cup.. This all helps keep your junk in place, although, the gay boy briefs should be snug and you are still on the loose when you have to use the bathroom..

Just my input :)

-Tony

This is how I pack, too, but has anyone been through one of those airport body scanners while packing in this manner? Does anyone know if your packer would 'pass'? I've also wondered about a packer passing in an MRI machine, so if anyone knows, I'm eager to hear about that, too.

[Liam]

This is how I pack, too, but has anyone been through one of those airport body scanners while packing in this manner? Does anyone know if your packer would 'pass'? I've also wondered about a packer passing in an MRI machine, so if anyone knows, I'm eager to hear about that, too.

I've not had any issues with packing and flying.

[Stearns]

I've not had any issues with packing and flying.

Thanks for the response, Liam. I haven't had any issues, thus far, either. But, I haven't been placed in one of the body scanner machines. Just wondering if anyone has, or if they are familiar enough with the technology to know if a packer would pass if placed in a built-in pouch in the briefs?

[theoddz]

Well, for what it's worth, I just returned from a national union (AFGE...which is Federal Gov't) conference in Atlantic City. One of the great folks I met and am good friends with (she's also from my hometown of Savannah, GA) now is a union Steward for the TSA (Transportation Safety Administration). They're the folks who do the airport security.

I will email my friend and ask her about this. She is fully supportive of GLBTQ people and our issues in the Federal Government. I will ask her about this. If there's anything else anyone wants to know about this stuff, let me know by PM or post it here. I'd probably be more likely to see it if you PM me with it, though.

Hopefully, I can help to find some answers for us. I'm seriously curious about this, too. :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Stearns]

Well, for what it's worth, I just returned from a national union (AFGE...which is Federal Gov't) conference in Atlantic City. One of the great folks I met and am good friends with (she's also from my hometown of Savannah, GA) now is a union Steward for the TSA (Transportation Safety Administration). They're the folks who do the airport security.

I will email my friend and ask her about this. She is fully supportive of GLBTQ people and our issues in the Federal Government. I will ask her about this. If there's anything else anyone wants to know about this stuff, let me know by PM or post it here. I'd probably be more likely to see it if you PM me with it, though.

Hopefully, I can help to find some answers for us. I'm seriously curious about this, too. :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

That'd be great, Theo, thanks. I'm looking forward to hearing what your friend has to say. I fly pretty often and have been concerned about this issue ever since these machines came out.

[Linus]

Anyone here going to the LA LGTQ Center's Trans health group/center? I just contacted them about getting an appointment (I'll admit to being nervous about trying to educate a "regular" family physician on this stuff in Redondo) and got told it's a 4 month wait!!?!

Sigh.

Someone explain to me again how this is an improvement on the Canadian system (wait time for new appointments is usually a month or two at most).

For those that don't use doctors that aren't necessarily trans specialists, what challenges do you face? How much do you educate them? I'd really prefer to have a doctor in Redondo Beach but I'll admit I'm worried about what I'll face by using a local doc who isn't necessarily trans-aware in general.

[The Oopster]

Anyone here going to the LA LGTQ Center's Trans health group/center? I just contacted them about getting an appointment (I'll admit to being nervous about trying to educate a "regular" family physician on this stuff in Redondo) and got told it's a 4 month wait!!?!

Sigh.

Someone explain to me again how this is an improvement on the Canadian system (wait time for new appointments is usually a month or two at most).

For those that don't use doctors that aren't necessarily trans specialists, what challenges do you face? How much do you educate them? I'd really prefer to have a doctor in Redondo Beach but I'll admit I'm worried about what I'll face by using a local doc who isn't necessarily trans-aware in general.

There is a dr at cedars that sees trans patients ... i can get you his info if you want. I go to a urologist that does hormone treatment for ftms and mtfs. I really like the guy. He is just west of downtown on wilshire. He will let me get my blood work done from my other drs so that my insurance covers it .... then I just have to pay like $90 out of pocket for a yearly visit. I was fortuntate to not have to pay for the original consultation because i needed a urologist and so the insurance covered that part. If you want his info i can get it to you also .... get this the last time I went to him to have my urine check ... no charge .. didn't even put it through insurance.

I've been pretty lucky with my drs here in la. Others haven't had as good of luck and they went to drs in west hollywood so go figure. I could have just gotten stuff through my regular physician who has dealt with hormones but not for transitional purposes but consdering i've had other health problems I definitely wanted someone who had experience with it.

My obgyn ... i was nervous about and ended up he did his residency in san francisco and although he personally didn't have any transgender patients they had them at the clinic he was at, so you just never no.

[handsomeFTM4u]

Did anyone catch the interview with Diane Sawyer (I think it was her)? I loved what he said this was the first time he was living in his body for the first time. And he received shaving products for his 40th birthday. Now that would definitely put a huge smile on my face.

Braedon:

1. I always knew I was a boy. In fact, I used to get on my knees and pray to God to change me when I went to bed. I thought I would wake up with a penis and testicles. When that didn't happen, I took my older brothers jock strap and filled it up with my jock socks. I used safety pins to hold it up.

2. I was called by my male nickname since I was in elementary school. It was the only thing that could link my mind, body, and soul together at this point in time. I would always play with "male" toys like cars, trucks, guns, etc. I never was interested in Barbie, or girlie things. And clothes, I always wore masculine clothes, and when I was buying my own clothes they all came from the men's dept.

When puberty hit, it was nothing short of hell. I felt like I had a piano on my chest. Then the next blow wouldn't come until I had top surgery, which was botched.

3. I came out as gay first, then trans. It was a matter of time. Feeling things out for myself. As time went on, I knew I had to do what I always wanted too. Maybe selfish of me, but we only have one life to live. So, I say live and let live.

Alot of folks may not like me because I don't take "t", but then again, they don't have my body or my health. I don't feel like I have to explain my medical history online to explain my body. It is what it is. I have paid cold hard cash for the surgeries I have had so far.

Andrew
I don't know why you would think someone would be mad at you for not taking T. If you've already done the surgeries then you don't need the T

[handsomeFTM4u]

Being a trauma survivor I lived 11 years in seclusion and tried to be a girl. It didn't work for me at all. Eleven years is a long time. Fast forward: I'm planning on starting T in January.

good for you. I have been on it for 6 years now, and I have to say it was the BEST DECISION I EVER MADE IN MY LIFE :)

[tuffboi29]

Hi everyone.

I ran into a great site and thought I would share with hopes that it may help someone out.

Take care!!

http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/BBUB.html

[katsarecool]

Did anyone catch ABCNews 20/20 tonight? Sad story!

[Linus]

Did anyone catch ABCNews 20/20 tonight? Sad story!

I didn't. Could you tell us what it was about and what was sad about it?

[katsarecool]

thank you for asking Linus. You can go to ABCnews web site to watch the story. Just check the 20/20 link for yesterday's show. A short synopsis though; a mtf transgendered person becomes a widow of a fireman who lost his life fighting a fire. His family found out that she was born a man and is now suing her for survivor's benefits totalling almost a million dollars citing their marriage was not legal in TX. The surgery was done before marriage, the husband was well aware of the circumstances and she had her name changed on DL and other legal papers. It was very touching and emphasizes how far we have to go.

[Jet]

I quite T. And there's a storm brewing. There are things in our past sometimes that can't be changed—things follow us. Wishing you well.

[Linus]

thank you for asking Linus. You can go to ABCnews web site to watch the story. Just check the 20/20 link for yesterday's show. A short synopsis though; a mtf transgendered person becomes a widow of a fireman who lost his life fighting a fire. His family found out that she was born a man and is now suing her for survivor's benefits totalling almost a million dollars citing their marriage was not legal in TX. The surgery was done before marriage, the husband was well aware of the circumstances and she had her name changed on DL and other legal papers. It was very touching and emphasizes how far we have to go.

Ah.. this story: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1776

I quite T. And there's a storm brewing. There are things in our past sometimes that can't be changed—things follow us. Wishing you well.


Sorry to hear that but sometimes we have to step back before we can move forward. Hopefully things will sort themselves out and allow you to move in the direction you want.

[asphaltcowboi]

question?
i have taken T is the past for about 9 mos. my personality changed for the worse and friends convinced me it was the T. ive been off T for about a year. i would like to start back on it. has anyone else had agressiveness, meanness issues with T? and now i know what to expect is it possiable to curb the issues?

[Kobi]

I have a question....

I'm presuming you are familiar with the stiry about Kye on the GWU NCAA basketball team. He said "I'm not a trans, I am a man."

Is that a personal preference or is there a distinction that is made in the community?

[Kobi]

I have a question....

I'm presuming you are familiar with the article about Kye on the GWU NCAA womens basketball team. He said "I'm not a trans, I am a man."

Is that a personal preference or is there a distinction that is made in the community?

[atomiczombie]

question?
i have taken T is the past for about 9 mos. my personality changed for the worse and friends convinced me it was the T. ive been off T for about a year. i would like to start back on it. has anyone else had agressiveness, meanness issues with T? and now i know what to expect is it possiable to curb the issues?

Sometimes the shots can make you more prone to mood swings, but that isn't a big issue for most guys. I am more susceptible to that because of my bipolar disorder, so I am on the gel. I apply it every day so I get a continuous amount instead of the cycles of the shots. That has worked well for me. Maybe you can discuss that possibility with your doctor.

[asphaltcowboi]

Sometimes the shots can make you more prone to mood swings, but that isn't a big issue for most guys. I am more susceptible to that because of my bipolar disorder, so I am on the gel. I apply it every day so I get a continuous amount instead of the cycles of the shots. That has worked well for me. Maybe you can discuss that possibility with your doctor.

ok ill talk to a doc about it.. thanks i see you in rio vista ? i used to live in antioch.. in in az now.

[Thinker]

I have a question....

I'm presuming you are familiar with the article about Kye on the GWU NCAA womens basketball team. He said "I'm not a trans, I am a man."

Is that a personal preference or is there a distinction that is made in the community?

Personally speaking, I think it's just a self-identification thing.....so a personal preference.

There are many who reject the "female at birth" notion and many who accept it without question. It's just self-identification.

Just my opinion, of course...

[Thinker]

question?
i have taken T is the past for about 9 mos. my personality changed for the worse and friends convinced me it was the T. ive been off T for about a year. i would like to start back on it. has anyone else had agressiveness, meanness issues with T? and now i know what to expect is it possiable to curb the issues?

Like atomiczombie said, talking it over with your doc would be wise. Perhaps you just need a lower amount on a weekly basis.......or getting a daily dose like atomic does. Something more steady...

[Linus]

I have a question....

I'm presuming you are familiar with the article about Kye on the GWU NCAA womens basketball team. He said "I'm not a trans, I am a man."

Is that a personal preference or is there a distinction that is made in the community?

Personally speaking, I think it's just a self-identification thing.....so a personal preference.

There are many who reject the "female at birth" notion and many who accept it without question. It's just self-identification.

Just my opinion, of course...

I have to agree with Thinker about this. It is an identity choice.

[Leigh]

I agree as well that its a personal preference, as I've seen that with many people to be the case. I've known trans guys who compleely shun the notion that they were ever female even if only at birth, and I've known other guys who embrace who they were as they transition. I personally am the kind of guy who embraces My past and knows that I may have been born female, but I'm still a man and am matching My outside to My inside feelings. I'm not ashamed of any of My years as a female, no I dont like that but I embrace it and know that I had may good times in the past ~ times that I wouldn't trade for the world :)

[Joe Mario]

Hey Guys,

A question about facial hair:
How long should one give it until his facial hair is coming in as fully as it ever will?
Might it take longer than 2.5 - 3 years?

Just wondering...

Thanks,

[Thinker]

Hey Guys,

A question about facial hair:
How long should one give it until his facial hair is coming in as fully as it ever will?
Might it take longer than 2.5 - 3 years?

Just wondering...

Thanks,

Hey bud...

I wonder about that too. I've read in a few places where that type of growth is still changing for up to 5 years.

I figure that at the 5-year mark, I will have as much as I'm gonna get.

[Jesse]

Well, I have been on T for 12 years now, and my beard started coming in much thicker just this year. I'm wondering when it stops. lol

Hey bud....

I wonder about that too. I've read in a few places where that type of growth is still changing for up to 5 years.

I figure that at the 5-year mark, I will have as much as I'm gonna get.

[Thinker]

Well, I have been on T for 12 years now, and my beard started coming in much thicker just this year. I'm wondering when it stops. lol

NO SHIT!!!!!!?!! Well, that's good to know!

[EnderD_503]

I have a question....

I'm presuming you are familiar with the article about Kye on the GWU NCAA womens basketball team. He said "I'm not a trans, I am a man."

Is that a personal preference or is there a distinction that is made in the community?

I think you could say it's both. I also kind of cringe when people talk as though its about denying that you were born with female anatomy. I don't think many out there actually deny that, since it's a little hard to deny with it in your face every day. Personally, when I reject the word "trans" it's because I don't like its implications for me, and I consider my mental/neurological sex more important than the biological sex I was born into, since that is what determines my consciousness as an individual. I know a lot of guys my age see it this way, too, so it may also be generational.

Personally, I don't think saying "I'm not trans, I am a man" is necessarily denying having been born biologically female (I didn't get the impression that Kye was denying that fact), but taking the mind as more important than the physical manifestation of sex one was born into.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Edit, wanted to add that I don't think this kind of statement necessarily severs one from the LGBT or trans community. It's simply a different way of seeing your situation.

[Greyson]

I think you could say it's both. I also kind of cringe when people talk as though its about denying that you were born with female anatomy. I don't think many out there actually deny that, since it's a little hard to deny with it in your face every day. Personally, when I reject the word "trans" it's because I don't like its implications for me, and I consider my mental/neurological sex more important than the biological sex I was born into, since that is what determines my consciousness as an individual. I know a lot of guys my age see it this way, too, so it may also be generational.

Personally, I don't think saying "I'm not trans, I am a man" is necessarily denying having been born biologically female (I didn't get the impression that Kye was denying that fact), but taking the mind as more important than the physical manifestation of sex one was born into.That's my two cents, anyway.

Edit, wanted to add that I don't think this kind of statement necessarily severs one from the LGBT or trans community. It's simply a different way of seeing your situation.

Ender, thanks for giving your perspective. Your post helped me get a better understanding of where you and others are coming from. On this particular nuance, we differ.

For me saying I am a "Transman" lends clarity to those that are trying to fit me somewhere on the gender spectrum. I do want them to know, I was born into a female body and my gender expression, how I think, how I feel, how I move through this world, did not and does not fit the constructs of how gender is perceived, critiqued. (BTW, I don't agree with how gender is broken down by the larger culture. Femininity and masculinity are not exclusive to either female or the male sex.)

[atomiczombie]

Ender, thanks for giving your perspective. Your post helped me get a better understanding of where you and others are coming from. On this particular nuance, we differ.

For me saying I am a "Transman" lends clarity to those that are trying to fit me somewhere on the gender spectrum. I do want them to know, I was born into a female body and my gender expression, how I think, how I feel, how I move through this world, did not and does not fit the constructs of how gender is perceived, critiqued. (BTW, I don't agree with how gender is broken down by the larger culture. Femininity and masculinity are not exclusive to either female or the male sex.)

I am right here with you Greyson. I claim "transguy" because for me, I am on a spectrum. My upbringing and experiences when I was young and in the closet have shaped me and are part of who I am. But I am a guy, not a woman. For me trans means I stand outside the gender norms. It just fits for me and how I feel as a person.

There is nothing wrong with guys IDing as men and not trans. That is their sense of self and should be acknowledged and respected. We are a diverse population, not completely homogenous. But its that way with any of the "letters" in the LGBTQ community.

[Joe Mario]

Curious how other guys on T feel about being referred to as TransSexual?

I don't like the term for myself.
I feel similarly to other posters who say the term
"Trans Guy" is a comfortable fit.

PS: The 'Trans' part of the term for me is used partly as social clarification with people I don't wish to, but who might otherwise take me for a bio-male.

Looking forward to your take on it

[weatherboi]

Curious how other guys on T feel about being referred to as TransSexual?
why does a guy here have to be on T in order to answer this question?

I don't like the term for myself.
I feel similarly to other posters who say the term
"Trans Guy" is a comfortable fit.

PS: The 'Trans' part of the term for me is used partly as social clarification with people I don't wish to, but who might otherwise take me for a bio-male.

Looking forward to your take on it




Joe Mario-
Trans covers a lot more guys,than just guys on T. For example, a guy decides to only get top surgery but never use T. His opinion would be just as influential to the conversation. I am going to assume you thought out your question because of it being only specific to guys on T so I need some clarification as to why. Thanks in advance for taking the time out to answer this question.

[Linus]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery: how long before you were "fully" back to "snuff" for work (that is, back at a 100%). My work wants to know if I would be ok with traveling for work on the week of June 13th (about 3 weeks after surgery)

[atomiczombie]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery: how long before you were "fully" back to "snuff" for work (that is, back at a 100%). My work wants to know if I would be ok with traveling for work on the week of June 13th (about 3 weeks after surgery)

Hey Linus,

I just had my surgery yesterday. My doctor told me not to lift anything above 20lbs for 4 weeks (right now I am too sore to lift anything above 5lbs). My concern for you is lugging your baggage around. It tugs on your sutures and makes the scarring worse from what I have been told. If I were you I would give yourself 4-6 weeks til you travel. Hope that helps.

Drew

[DapperButch]

Joe Mario-
Trans covers a lot more guys,than just guys on T. For example, a guy decides to only get top surgery but never use T. His opinion would be just as influential to the conversation. I am going to assume you thought out your question because of it being only specific to guys on T so I need some clarification as to why. Thanks in advance for taking the time out to answer this question.

Grant,

I know you directed this question to Joe, but I guess I'm curious.... why does Joe have to explain why he chose to direct his question to a certain group of people?

[Thinker]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery: how long before you were "fully" back to "snuff" for work (that is, back at a 100%). My work wants to know if I would be ok with traveling for work on the week of June 13th (about 3 weeks after surgery)

If I remember correctly I took 6 weeks off. When I did return, I wished that I had returned to half days; I would hit a wall around 1:00 and was just useless after that.

When I returned, we had just moved in to new office spaces. I remember attempting to spray and wipe down my work surfaces and feeling pretty nervous about that kind of reaching.

Like Drew said, you really won't want to lift even your laptop case at 3 weeks.

Even if things are healing well and you're feeling good at that time, the incisions and tissue will still be very tender and not even close to "healed".

If you have the gift of time, I'd sure take it.

ETA: To answer your real question, I'd say I was feeling good to go at about 8 weeks. I had my energy back, and I was doing some mild stretching. Keep in mind, though, that I literally laid around for 5 or 6 solid weeks......did only the bare minimum.

[Thinker]

Hey Linus,

I just had my surgery yesterday. My doctor told me not to lift anything above 20lbs for 4 weeks (right now I am too sore to lift anything above 5lbs). My concern for you is lugging your baggage around. It tugs on your sutures and makes the scarring worse from what I have been told. If I were you I would give yourself 4-6 weeks til you travel. Hope that helps.

Drew

I thought of you yesterday morning. I'm glad you're already here and checking in; that's a good sign!

I don't even need to say I hope you're feeling good..........cuz I know you are!

[Jesse]

Linus,

There are so many variables. Much depends on the type of surgery you have, how well and fast your body heals, how long the drains remains in etc. I drove a pick up truck from Maryland to TN 8 days after my bilateral chest surgery. Three days later I was outside pressure washing a house. lol Was it fun? No. Fact is. I had to do it so I did. But I also am blessed with a high pain threshold and did not have to take any pain meds after my surgery.

Truly if the healing process all goes as it should and you have even a decent pain threshold I would think you could travel as long as you are not lifting heavy suitcases, and you probably should get somone else to lift your carry on in and out of the overhead as well.

Good luck you you.

I have a question for those who have had top surgery: how long before you were "fully" back to "snuff" for work (that is, back at a 100%). My work wants to know if I would be ok with traveling for work on the week of June 13th (about 3 weeks after surgery)

[Rufusboi]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery: how long before you were "fully" back to "snuff" for work (that is, back at a 100%). My work wants to know if I would be ok with traveling for work on the week of June 13th (about 3 weeks after surgery)

Linus

I was back to work full-time after 5 days. I only took off the five days because work made me. I felt good after 3 days and wanted to go back to work then.

Rufus

[Linus]

Welp. As I trek towards surgery date, I've done a few things. One of the first was get this (La-Z-Boy Roland La-Z-Time Reclining Chair with special coating in case of puppeh disasters):

http://www.la-z-boy.com/Pages/ImageCheck.aspx?vntPath=http%3a%2f%2frender.la-z-boy.com%2f500%2fvnt%2frecliner_553_2.vnt%3f%26wid% 3d391%26obj%3dmain%26src%3d%2ffabrics%2f28%2fC9610 08.tif%26align%3d0%26gloss%3d20%26sharp%3d1%26res% 3d28

Big enough for me, the two pugs and, if they are eager, our soon-to-have two new kitties. :)

I also moved my "surgery money" over to one of my credit cards so I can get air mile points for paying for the surgery. (win-win for me, IMO).

[DapperButch]

Welp. As I trek towards surgery date, I've done a few things. One of the first was get this (La-Z-Boy Roland La-Z-Time Reclining Chair with special coating in case of puppeh disasters):

http://www.la-z-boy.com/Pages/ImageCheck.aspx?vntPath=http%3a%2f%2frender.la-z-boy.com%2f500%2fvnt%2frecliner_553_2.vnt%3f%26wid% 3d391%26obj%3dmain%26src%3d%2ffabrics%2f28%2fC9610 08.tif%26align%3d0%26gloss%3d20%26sharp%3d1%26res% 3d28

Big enough for me, the two pugs and, if they are eager, our soon-to-have two new kitties. :)

I also moved my "surgery money" over to one of my credit cards so I can get air mile points for paying for the surgery. (win-win for me, IMO).

Number one, GREAT looking chair! I still have my threadbare Lazy boy that was once my father's b/c it is wide enough for my jack russell to sit beside me. (and yes, it really is threadbare!)

Number two, awesome plan for air mile points!

[Blade]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?

[Linus]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?

Actually that is one way to do it. The Insurance Company cannot verify how the procedure is done (HIPPA violation), just that the surgeon has done it. I will be applying to see if my insurance will cover mine (Dr. V. has said that I'm large enough and with the back issues I've had to potentially qualify this way).

That said, I still have to cover it on my own and apply for insurance coverage. For me, I had some money saved to pay for taxes I thought I'd pay but turned out I didn't need to and that I actually got a refund. The combination of the two was enough to cover the cost of surgery.

There are some grants you can get. Look for the Jim Collins Foundation. They were created to cover surgery costs specifically for trans individuals in need.

[DapperButch]

Actually that is one way to do it. The Insurance Company cannot verify how the procedure is done (HIPPA violation), just that the surgeon has done it. I will be applying to see if my insurance will cover mine (Dr. V. has said that I'm large enough and with the back issues I've had to potentially qualify this way).

That said, I still have to cover it on my own and apply for insurance coverage. For me, I had some money saved to pay for taxes I thought I'd pay but turned out I didn't need to and that I actually got a refund. The combination of the two was enough to cover the cost of surgery.

There are some grants you can get. Look for the Jim Collins Foundation. They were created to cover surgery costs specifically for trans individuals in need.

Hey, Linus.

I thought you had Aetna? Do they no longer pay for male chest reconstruction/gender identity medical services?

[Linus]

Hey, Linus.

I thought you had Aetna? Do they no longer pay for male chest reconstruction/gender identity medical services?

They do. I have to prove all that. Dr. V indicated that I could probably apply under either. The downside is that I have a $5K+ deductible so.. I'm still paying for the majority of it :P

[DapperButch]

They do. I have to prove all that. Dr. V indicated that I could probably apply under either. The downside is that I have a $5K+ deductible so.. I'm still paying for the majority of it :P

5K? Holy Crap! That stinks! Sorry, man.

[The Oopster]

They do. I have to prove all that. Dr. V indicated that I could probably apply under either. The downside is that I have a $5K+ deductible so.. I'm still paying for the majority of it :P

Once you hit that deductible make sure to get any and all medical stuff needed done before years end!

[The Oopster]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?

I had contemplated this and in fact my insurance at the time denied the claim despite all my back problems. They said I had too many and that it wouldn't help! Wrong ... but I am glad they didn't at the time because I wouldn't have been happy with just a reduction and couldn't imagine doing surgery twice. I'm gettin older and the healing time and process more lengthy each time.

I ended up getting a car accident settlement that was enough to pay for my surgery and time off work since i had a job without vacation or sick time.

Don't recommend that route but my experience was everything just happened when it needed to happen. It Fell into place at the time that my sanity was wearing out and something needed to be done. Got the money and had surgery two weeks later because it was the slow period of work and if I was going to miss that was the time to be off.

[The Oopster]

Welp. As I trek towards surgery date, I've done a few things. One of the first was get this (La-Z-Boy Roland La-Z-Time Reclining Chair with special coating in case of puppeh disasters):

http://www.la-z-boy.com/Pages/ImageCheck.aspx?vntPath=http%3a%2f%2frender.la-z-boy.com%2f500%2fvnt%2frecliner_553_2.vnt%3f%26wid% 3d391%26obj%3dmain%26src%3d%2ffabrics%2f28%2fC9610 08.tif%26align%3d0%26gloss%3d20%26sharp%3d1%26res% 3d28

Big enough for me, the two pugs and, if they are eager, our soon-to-have two new kitties. :)

I also moved my "surgery money" over to one of my credit cards so I can get air mile points for paying for the surgery. (win-win for me, IMO).



Congrats on the chair ... you're going to love it! I went all out and got leather myself and I've had it 6 years and it has worn really well only thing is the dog hair that gets caught into the crevis's. My ex has one that he's had for 15 years and we got it use ... it was atleast 10 years at that time. His isn't as nice but still holding it's own

[Blade]

Once you hit that deductible make sure to get any and all medical stuff needed done before years end!

Yes for sure, actually my friend that had the reduction done did exactly that. Including having a baby at the end of that year.......can you imagine having a baby for free. That has to be about as awesome as a trans guy having top surgery

[Linus]

FYI.. interesting project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1741308026/becoming-visible-portraits-of-homeless-transgender

[wolfbittenpoet]

Thanks for the link Linus. The problem is only getting worse. Hopefully with visibility we can make it better.

[Linus]

wolfbittenpoet, one can hope. I knew there were a lot of transkids in NYC when I lived there but didn't realize it was 35% of the homeless teen population! It's so high and so frustrating.

When I was in group, I remember some of those kids coming and most came because parents had kicked them out, disowned them, beat them and so on. I remember hearing from K about the defunding of one of the only trans homeless shelters by the State gov't (I think, don't quote me on that). These kids need that kind of place to survive period. It's more than belong, it's pure survival.

I so want to win a lottery and provide a place or two or more for trans kids at various large cities in Canada and the US.

[Linus]

http://www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/StateTransCA_report_2009Print.pdf

A report on the State of Transgender Individuals in California (2009). What's interesting is some of the breakdowns. What did surprise me was that the poverty level was listed as about $10K (!! I had to check to see if I was losing it: http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/11poverty.shtml ). Canada's poverty rate is over $20K.

Anyways, it's interesting to see the breakdown of FTMs vs. MTFs.

[theoddz]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?


I'm going to answer your question and also another common question that's asked, simply so others will know what this takes, moneywise, to do, since this procedure is seldom covered by insurance at all.

I paid entirely out of my own pocket. Dr. V's fee, about $7750, included everything (he has his own accredited surgical center) except the lab pathology, which ran about $450. Surprisingly, my health insurance (FEHB) paid for that, minus a $38 deductible, which I paid.

I had to travel to Newport Beach, California, from here in Las Vegas, so by the time I added up the travel expenses (for my girlfriend and me), hotel, meals, etc., the total cost was right under $10K.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Thinker]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?

I paid all medical and associated fees out of pocket. I went on a spending fast for about a year and socked the money away.

I was very fortunate to have a career at the time that allowed me to accrue sick and personal leave to the extent that my entire recovery time was covered.

[Linus]

So.. I just got a note from Dr. V's office. And apparently Aetna pre-approved everything except for $4500 (likely the deductible). So I end up paying a total of $5K (includes the deposit) for the surgery. :)

[atomiczombie]

So.. I just got a note from Dr. V's office. And apparently Aetna pre-approved everything except for $4500 (likely the deductible). So I end up paying a total of $5K (includes the deposit) for the surgery. :)

Awesome Linus! I am so glad for you. :)

[The Oopster]

So.. I just got a note from Dr. V's office. And apparently Aetna pre-approved everything except for $4500 (likely the deductible). So I end up paying a total of $5K (includes the deposit) for the surgery. :)

That is cool

[Quintease]

Just putting this here in case anyone is interested http://magazine.goodvibes.com/2011/05/17/call-for-participants-survey-on-transgender-language/

[atomiczombie]

Hey guys, do any of you pack while you swim? If so how do you manage that, what kind of swim trunks do you use, what type of packer, how do you attach your packer to your trunks? I know a lot of soft packers are porous, so how does that work when they get wet? Anyone who can shed a little light on this, I would appreciate some input. Thanks!

Drew

[Corkey]

Drew, the packers aren't ment for swimming pools, the chlorine will ruin your packer, same for salt water. I would not wear a packer in a lake or river because of contamination issues. There are companies that make trunks for packers, but they take no responsibility for your packer.

[Guy]

Hey guys, do any of you pack while you swim? If so how do you manage that, what kind of swim trunks do you use, what type of packer, how do you attach your packer to your trunks? I know a lot of soft packers are porous, so how does that work when they get wet? Anyone who can shed a little light on this, I would appreciate some input. Thanks!

Drew

Some silicone packers are waterproof and are safe to use in chlorine or bleach

[weatherboi]

Hey guys, do any of you pack while you swim? If so how do you manage that, what kind of swim trunks do you use, what type of packer, how do you attach your packer to your trunks? I know a lot of soft packers are porous, so how does that work when they get wet? Anyone who can shed a little light on this, I would appreciate some input. Thanks!

Drew

i keep one specifically for water activities. i just wear 2 pairs of briefs with my harness. A little bulky but i am the only one that notices and it allows me to be active without worry. i probably go thru 3 packers a year just for water activities.the packers are meant to be cleaned daily sometimes two or three times depending on activity. i use the silicone based Mr. Right and just clean it the way it says and have had no problems. Underworks has a new chest binder suit that i am thinking about trying but i haven't committed fully to that idea. Hope this helps. Good luck!

[atomiczombie]

Some silicone packers are waterproof and are safe to use in chlorine or bleach

Could you direct me to some links for these silicone packers? Thx in advance.

[The Oopster]

i keep one specifically for water activities. i just wear 2 pairs of briefs with my harness. A little bulky but i am the only one that notices and it allows me to be active without worry. i probably go thru 3 packers a year just for water activities. Underworks has a new chest binder suit that i am thinking about trying but i haven't committed fully to that idea. Hope this helps. Good luck!

I have done the same thing and usually use an older one that is on it's way out ... I have used a jock strap on the outside of a pair of briefs. a tad less bulky then above. I have just used a silicone soft packy.

side issue but it's weird since my chest surgery and my current job I've done less packing. Part of it is I work out in the woods and i have device to pee and stand up and just found the packy to be in the way of trying to pee quickly and indiscretely. There are still occassions I do, just because I'm more insecure that day for some reason or another but it's been interesting to watch the evolution of the process

[Guy]

Could you direct me to some links for these silicone packers? Thx in advance.


sure, this particular site has a big selection

Vixen Creations: Premium Silicone Sex Toys-Adult Toys (http://www.vixencreations.com/home.html)

[atomiczombie]

sure, this particular site has a big selection

Vixen Creations: Premium Silicone Sex Toys-Adult Toys (http://www.vixencreations.com/home.html)

Yeah they have the Mr Right packer, but I have heard its kind of large and clunky. That's the only silicone packer I have seen on the market. Does anyone know of any others? Thx in advance.

[The Oopster]

I think I have also use pair of jockey's pouch underwear with a cock sock attached

http://www.jockey.com/products/Sport-Performance-Boxer-Brief-2-pack

Probably could use any underwear but just my preference and the fabric for the sports ones is more constricting then a plain cotton pair and dries quicker when in and out of water. If you have a jockey outlet near you that's wear I recomment buying them. You can get the best deals in their outlets!

[atomiczombie]

I think I have also use pair of jockey's pouch underwear with a cock sock attached

http://www.jockey.com/products/Sport-Performance-Boxer-Brief-2-pack

Probably could use any underwear but just my preference and the fabric for the sports ones is more constricting then a plain cotton pair and dries quicker when in and out of water. If you have a jockey outlet near you that's wear I recomment buying them. You can get the best deals in their outlets!

OK cool but I am asking about swim trunks. >.>

[The Oopster]

OK cool but I am asking about swim trunks. >.>

you asked how you pack when swimming and that is how i pack all that goes under my swim trunks. I don't attach something specifically to my trunks. the fabric in those would work better then plain cotton and compress the packer better. I wear normal swim trunks.

[atomiczombie]

you asked how you pack when swimming and that is how i pack all that goes under my swim trunks. I don't attach something specifically to my trunks. the fabric in those would work better then plain cotton and compress the packer better. I wear normal swim trunks.

Thanks, I didn't understand that you wear those under your trunks.

[The Oopster]

Thanks, I didn't understand that you wear those under your trunks.

That's what i thought. I why i like those specifically is i can tuck my cock sock directly in the pouch even though there is velcro that attaches to the band the fabric holds everything in so I feel safe about nothing falling out. they aren't as bulking underneath either and like I said the fabric drys quickly so you don't have the wet undie phenomenon

[The Oopster]

http://www.toolshedtoys.com/details.php?prodId=1610&category=&secondary=124&keywords=
is the best i could find. I don't think the person making the cock socks is doing it anymoe ... you can find a picture on there though and make one or have someone make one but I just found this site...

don't know if anyone knows anything about it but here it is
http://www.tranzwear.net/
below is another site that I use to try to find out whatever I want to find out
http://shancechance.webs.com/apps/links/

[Camo Eagle]

I have a question for those who have had top surgery. How did you pay for your surgery?

It has been suggested that I have a reduction for health reasons and my insurance would pay for it. As tempting as that sounds they wouldn't be gone they'd still be there just much smaller.

So how did you pay for your surgery?

I got a very low %, bank loan.

I used Dr. Peter Raphael in Plano Tx.
http://www.ai4ps.com/procedures/transgender/female-to-male-mastectomy/

He charged me $6000 which included everything. Visits, consults, surgery, surg facility, follow up.

Because I was alone, I had to pay them $550 for a nights stay at a private hotel suite w/ a private nurse.

There is an extended stay place right down street that gives a special rate to his clients. Dont rem how much it was, but think it was about &175 for the week.

There was also some cost for labs & the med scripts for surg day, which my ins covered.

I did about all of it for the $7000 I borrowed.

The big expense at the time was all the oncologist ,cardiac & blood work I had to under go to prep for the surgery. Ins covered most, but 20% was still over a $1000.

TIPS BASED ON EXP.:

If you get a loan, try to use a bank.
Those Med Loan companies are only 1 step under loan shark rates. One told me that I had such excellent credit they would only charge me 28.9% interest. WTF? LOL
My bank gave me a 3 yr loan @ 2.9% bc I have excellent credit.

Get a list of all after care supplies prior to surg travel. Stock up on all this. Take some with you if you will be staying in a hotel. Leave some at home so you dont have to shop or run out after surgery.

If you can afford it, order/buy your compression garments prior as well.
You WILL want to get out of those ace wraps asap. LOL
I used a great zip up front vest. (approx $60-$75) You WILL NOT be able to get one over your head. I advise 2 if you can.

[The Oopster]

Hey I know this part isn't talked about as much but I have a few questions. If you aren't comfortable posting here a pm would work!

I've been on T shots for 3 or 4 years damn .. can't quite remember and on the creme a couple years prior to that. I started that in august of 2005. So I know I need to have the inner workings removed soon.

I'm hoping to get that part covered by insurance. Any pointers on making sure that happens? Also what is a time line for recovery on that, so I can figure out the best time in regards to work for doing it? I'm going to make an appoinment with my gyno soon but since i'm his only transgender patient the more info I go in with the better.

Thanks

[Thinker]

Hey I know this part isn't talked about as much but I have a few questions. If you aren't comfortable posting here a pm would work!

I've been on T shots for 3 or 4 years damn .. can't quite remember and on the creme a couple years prior to that. I started that in august of 2005. So I know I need to have the inner workings removed soon.

I'm hoping to get that part covered by insurance. Any pointers on making sure that happens? Also what is a time line for recovery on that, so I can figure out the best time in regards to work for doing it? I'm going to make an appoinment with my gyno soon but since i'm his only transgender patient the more info I go in with the better.

Thanks

As far as I know, it's all up to how your doctor writes up your diagnosis. Since he has a history with you, I would certainly hope he does it in a way that doesn't raise flags for the insurance company.

If I could remember the wording for mine, I'd happily share it. I do remember something about painful polyps or cysts.......something like that. I'm sure your doc will know what works and what doesn't.

The recovery time is going to depend a lot on the procedure the surgeon uses. One, in particular, is less invasive. I would say you'd be more than safe with 3-4 weeks.

[The Oopster]

As far as I know, it's all up to how your doctor writes up your diagnosis. Since he has a history with you, I would certainly hope he does it in a way that doesn't raise flags for the insurance company.

If I could remember the wording for mine, I'd happily share it. I do remember something about painful polyps or cysts.......something like that. I'm sure your doc will know what works and what doesn't.

The recovery time is going to depend a lot on the procedure the surgeon uses. One, in particular, is less invasive. I would say you'd be more than safe with 3-4 weeks.

Thanks ... I have do have a small cyst/fibroid and do get some pain ... figuring it may be time to exagerate the pain. Also have had a positive paps in the past so am prone to cancer based on that. So I am hoping they can right it up in such a manner to get it covered.

I know when we briefly talked about it before he mentioned how he did it but can't quite remember I know it is a lot less invasive then it used to be.

[Rufusboi]

I have a question for anyone on T. How often do you go to your doctor for bloodwork and checkups.

My doctor is making me come in every 3 months for bloodwork and checkups. I will have been on T one year in July. Is this normal when you first start T?

Rufus

[Linus]

I have a question for anyone on T. How often do you go to your doctor for bloodwork and checkups.

My doctor is making me come in every 3 months for bloodwork and checkups. I will have been on T one year in July. Is this normal when you first start T?

Rufus

Yes.. I did that for nearly two years and now I do it twice a year and will probably reduce it down more since by that point I'll know how my body handles T.

[Thinker]

I have a question for anyone on T. How often do you go to your doctor for bloodwork and checkups.

My doctor is making me come in every 3 months for bloodwork and checkups. I will have been on T one year in July. Is this normal when you first start T?

Rufus

I went 3-4 times during my first year, and two times a year after that.

Better to be safe.

[DapperButch]

I got a very low %, bank loan.

I used Dr. Peter Raphael in Plano Tx.
http://www.ai4ps.com/procedures/transgender/female-to-male-mastectomy/

He charged me $6000 which included everything. Visits, consults, surgery, surg facility, follow up.

Because I was alone, I had to pay them $550 for a nights stay at a private hotel suite w/ a private nurse.

There is an extended stay place right down street that gives a special rate to his clients. Dont rem how much it was, but think it was about &175 for the week.

There was also some cost for labs & the med scripts for surg day, which my ins covered.

I did about all of it for the $7000 I borrowed.

The big expense at the time was all the oncologist ,cardiac & blood work I had to under go to prep for the surgery. Ins covered most, but 20% was still over a $1000.

TIPS BASED ON EXP.:

If you get a loan, try to use a bank.
Those Med Loan companies are only 1 step under loan shark rates. One told me that I had such excellent credit they would only charge me 28.9% interest. WTF? LOL
My bank gave me a 3 yr loan @ 2.9% bc I have excellent credit.

Get a list of all after care supplies prior to surg travel. Stock up on all this. Take some with you if you will be staying in a hotel. Leave some at home so you dont have to shop or run out after surgery.

If you can afford it, order/buy your compression garments prior as well.
You WILL want to get out of those ace wraps asap. LOL
I used a great zip up front vest. (approx $60-$75) You WILL NOT be able to get one over your head. I advise 2 if you can.


Hey, Camo.

Were you pleased with his work? I remember him getting high ratings when transter dot com was around.

[atomiczombie]

I have a question for anyone on T. How often do you go to your doctor for bloodwork and checkups.

My doctor is making me come in every 3 months for bloodwork and checkups. I will have been on T one year in July. Is this normal when you first start T?

Rufus

Every 3 months is how often I go in too.

[Leigh]

I get it checked about every 3 months also

[Logicaly]

Every 3 months is very common at first from what I understand, I am also doing the same. They said after the first year I can drop it down to every 6 months, and then after another year of that, the doctor says I can go down to once a year if everything looks good.

On top of that, they also started my dose low, and while it was recently upped to .5ml every two weeks, we are using the 3 month mark to continue to up my dose as well, so that my body is easing into things.

[The Oopster]

i've been doing it a few years now and my dr typically does it once a year however i have other issues so i'm due back in 6 monthes. However he's under my insurance, he's also my urologist so it works out fine.

[Linus]

So de-boob-ification was a success. I've been going between deep sleep to lucid to wide awake. I'm actually surprised how little pain I feel (most of the pain is on the side, which Dr. V warned me about). K has been awesome at helping me out, especially for bathroom trips.

A few people have repped me about surprise that I'm home already. This surgery is considered day surgery and generally doesn't take more than 2.5 to 3 hours (at least the one that Dr. V performed on me). Once awake from anesthesia, I'm ok to go home and have a quiet sleepy day of drugs and clear fluids.

As it turned out I did get drains but given that they are slowing and becoming more clear I'm hopeful that I will get them removed tomorrow.

[Camo Eagle]

I've been on T shots for 3 or 4 years damn .. can't quite remember and on the creme a couple years prior to that. I started that in august of 2005. So I know I need to have the inner workings removed soon.

I'm hoping to get that part covered by insurance. Any pointers on making sure that happens? Also what is a time line for recovery on that, so I can figure out the best time in regards to work for doing it? I'm going to make an appoinment with my gyno soon but since i'm his only transgender patient the more info I go in with the better.

Thanks

Thanks ... I have do have a small cyst/fibroid and do get some pain ... figuring it may be time to exagerate the pain. Also have had a positive paps in the past so am prone to cancer based on that. So I am hoping they can right it up in such a manner to get it covered.


When I had mine in 99, it was for a med prob and was fully covered by ins.
With your multi Dxs I cant see why the TG issue even needs to be a factor. You have more than 1 standard reason to qual for a med hysto. If his office codes/bills it as such it should be covered. Good Luck.

I have a question for anyone on T. How often do you go to your doctor for bloodwork and checkups.

My doctor is making me come in every 3 months for bloodwork and checkups. I will have been on T one year in July. Is this normal when you first start T?

Rufus

1st yr, it was every 6 mths. Now yrly unless my lab work changes.

Hey, Camo.

Were you pleased with his work? I remember him getting high ratings when transter dot com was around.

I was VERY pleased. Dr. R, ofc staff, med/surg/nurses all wonderful. He employs many FTM/MTF in his ofc.
If you live near, or have someone to pick you up, its a day surg and you can go home. I only stayed in the area 7 days bc its a 5 hr 1 way drive & I was alone. I also wanted the drains out so I didnt have to make the trip again in a week. I was able to drive myself home 5 hrs that soon.
Only prob I had was the so called "dissolvable" sutures turned hard and sawed a 2 in long hole under my R arm. That was not any fault of the Dr., but was just my freaky body. I also am prone to keloid scarring so that area did scar. I think my incision line would be near perfect if I had been able to rest and not move my arms so much, but being alone I had to do what I had to do.
He has my highest recommendation, and Im hard to please. LOL

So de-boob-ification was a success. I've been going between deep sleep to lucid to wide awake. I'm actually surprised how little pain I feel (most of the pain is on the side, which Dr. V warned me about). K has been awesome at helping me out, especially for bathroom trips.

A few people have repped me about surprise that I'm home already. This surgery is considered day surgery and generally doesn't take more than 2.5 to 3 hours (at least the one that Dr. V performed on me). Once awake from anesthesia, I'm ok to go home and have a quiet sleepy day of drugs and clear fluids.

As it turned out I did get drains but given that they are slowing and becoming more clear I'm hopeful that I will get them removed tomorrow.

Congrats ! Those drains are the worst part of the whole thing. Everyday will be better. Very happy for you finally passing this milestone in your Journey.

[atomiczombie]

So de-boob-ification was a success. I've been going between deep sleep to lucid to wide awake. I'm actually surprised how little pain I feel (most of the pain is on the side, which Dr. V warned me about). K has been awesome at helping me out, especially for bathroom trips.

A few people have repped me about surprise that I'm home already. This surgery is considered day surgery and generally doesn't take more than 2.5 to 3 hours (at least the one that Dr. V performed on me). Once awake from anesthesia, I'm ok to go home and have a quiet sleepy day of drugs and clear fluids.

As it turned out I did get drains but given that they are slowing and becoming more clear I'm hopeful that I will get them removed tomorrow.

I'm so glad to hear Linus!! Wishing you a speedy and complication-free recovery! :)

Keep us updated on how you are coming along.

[Linus]

Whelp. Drains came out today. I go back in 12 days to see how the nipple grafts took. Additionally, he said that the first few days there will be more swelling and pain but by day 4/5 should start to reduce.

[300GT]

Whelp. Drains came out today. I go back in 12 days to see how the nipple grafts took. Additionally, he said that the first few days there will be more swelling and pain but by day 4/5 should start to reduce.

Congrats Linus, hoping you have a speedy recovery

[Linus]

Oh and I almost forgot to add: Dr. V said that I " lost" 5lbs as a result of the surgery but I'm not totally chiseled because he wanted to be sure that my chest matched my beer gut :rofl:

[The Oopster]

Hey theo and Linus!

Did either of you use arnica before, during, and after your surgery?

Since the two of you also went to voloshin and I know he sometimes doesn't use drains, I am curious of the factor.

I know thinker and I did use it and although he went do a different dr, both of us didn't have drains.

I'm wondering if that played a factor.

I know some in the medical community will say it isn't so, but I am curious.

[The Oopster]

Oh and I almost forgot to add: Dr. V said that I " lost" 5lbs as a result of the surgery but I'm not totally chiseled because he wanted to be sure that my chest matched my beer gut :rofl:

Congrats! I lost around 5 lbs also! I'm glad all is going well

[Linus]

Hey theo and Linus!

Did either of you use arnica before, during, and after your surgery?

Since the two of you also went to voloshin and I know he sometimes doesn't use drains, I am curious of the factor.

I know thinker and I did use it and although he went do a different dr, both of us didn't have drains.

I'm wondering if that played a factor.

I know some in the medical community will say it isn't so, but I am curious.

I'm going to say no on the arcina as I have no idea what that is. The drains weren't that horrendous since they were in for less than a day.

[The Oopster]

Oh and I almost forgot to add: Dr. V said that I " lost" 5lbs as a result of the surgery but I'm not totally chiseled because he wanted to be sure that my chest matched my beer gut :rofl:

I'm going to say no on the arcina as I have no idea what that is. The drains weren't that horrendous since they were in for less than a day.

It's a homoepathic medicine used for swelling and bruising.

[Rockinonahigh]

Whelp. Drains came out today. I go back in 12 days to see how the nipple grafts took. Additionally, he said that the first few days there will be more swelling and pain but by day 4/5 should start to reduce.

Congrats on your surgery,hears is to your speedy recovery and good health.

[Rockinonahigh]

Say folks,dose anyon know where I can get binders used,I am useing a x-large spandex t-shirt that works pretty well, but I cant find any anywhere in town,I got these at wall mart in the mens department a couple of years ago.Avadamy has a simular t-shirt but its priced pretty high...heck I prolly need a full body one.

[Thinker]

It's a homoepathic medicine used for swelling and bruising.

I, too, wondered if the Arnica played into it.

Seems like it's a "game-time decision" for some surgeons......which I think is a good thing. To me, it means they're paying attention. :)

[theoddz]

Hey theo and Linus!

Did either of you use arnica before, during, and after your surgery?

Since the two of you also went to voloshin and I know he sometimes doesn't use drains, I am curious of the factor.

I know thinker and I did use it and although he went do a different dr, both of us didn't have drains.

I'm wondering if that played a factor.

I know some in the medical community will say it isn't so, but I am curious.

No, Koop, I didn't use Arnica. Dr. V recommended that I use Nivea Cream (the one in the jar, not the tube) after my surgery, so that's what I did. He said that the other stuff was just "expensive" and it didn't do anything that the Nivea cream wouldn't do for me. I remembered that my sister used Nivea cream on my nephew when he was a baby (he's 21 now, and coming to visit me in July!!! :cheer:), so that was good enough for me.

I think that the reason for the drains has to do with how much tissue is removed. Like it was pointed out in Chaz's documentary, the purpose of the drains is to siphon off any accumulated fluid that the body generates to try to replace the excised breast tissue. Wearing the binder post-op, as directed, really helps with that, too. I didn't have my drains in for more than an day, either. It all went pretty quick, I think.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[atomiczombie]

I got a question for the guys who are a year out or more from top surgery: What did you use to lessen your scars during your first year? I hear a lot about silicone strips, has anyone used them? Any other products you guys can recommend? Thx in advance!