Ask a trans person!

[EnderD_503]

Say folks,dose anyon know where I can get binders used,I am useing a x-large spandex t-shirt that works pretty well, but I cant find any anywhere in town,I got these at wall mart in the mens department a couple of years ago.Avadamy has a simular t-shirt but its priced pretty high...heck I prolly need a full body one.

Dunno your situation, but this may or may not be of help: http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/BBUB.html

But, if you have a sex shop in town that is lgbt centric and they sell binders, sometimes they keep used binders around that they sell for like 5 bucks or something.

[Thinker]

No, Koop, I didn't use Arnica. Dr. V recommended that I use Nivea Cream (the one in the jar, not the tube) after my surgery, so that's what I did. He said that the other stuff was just "expensive" and it didn't do anything that the Nivea cream wouldn't do for me. I remembered that my sister used Nivea cream on my nephew when he was a baby (he's 21 now, and coming to visit me in July!!! :cheer:), so that was good enough for me.

I think that the reason for the drains has to do with how much tissue is removed. Like it was pointed out in Chaz's documentary, the purpose of the drains is to siphon off any accumulated fluid that the body generates to try to replace the excised breast tissue. Wearing the binder post-op, as directed, really helps with that, too. I didn't have my drains in for more than an day, either. It all went pretty quick, I think.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Arnica is for minimizing/reducing bleeding and bruising, not for treating scars. I'm assuming that is what you used the Nivea for??? Let me know if I'm reading that wrong, Theo.

Copied...

If your surgery poses the potential for a large loss of blood or you will undergo intravenous (IV) therapy, take Arnica montana. It reduces bleeding during surgery, prevents blood from pooling under your skin, and minimizes the surgical shock that can cause cardiovascular problems.

It was this type of information and that it would minimize bruising that I started Arnica about 10 days prior to surgery and then continued on it for another 3 or 4 days.

As for the scars... I can't remember what I used to treat them. Your surgeon, like Theo's, will obviously have some that he/she recommends.

:)

[The Oopster]

I, too, wondered if the Arnica played into it.

Seems like it's a "game-time decision" for some surgeons......which I think is a good thing. To me, it means they're paying attention. :)

I agree and have been curious.

I got a question for the guys who are a year out or more from top surgery: What did you use to lessen your scars during your first year? I hear a lot about silicone strips, has anyone used them? Any other products you guys can recommend? Thx in advance!

Nivea cream and lightly massaging the scar tissue.

No, Koop, I didn't use Arnica. Dr. V recommended that I use Nivea Cream (the one in the jar, not the tube) after my surgery, so that's what I did. He said that the other stuff was just "expensive" and it didn't do anything that the Nivea cream wouldn't do for me. I remembered that my sister used Nivea cream on my nephew when he was a baby (he's 21 now, and coming to visit me in July!!! :cheer:), so that was good enough for me.

I think that the reason for the drains has to do with how much tissue is removed. Like it was pointed out in Chaz's documentary, the purpose of the drains is to siphon off any accumulated fluid that the body generates to try to replace the excised breast tissue. Wearing the binder post-op, as directed, really helps with that, too. I didn't have my drains in for more than an day, either. It all went pretty quick, I think.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

I also used nivea cream for the scars.

Like thinker said the arnica was to reduce bleeding and bruising from the surgery. It is fairly inexpensive.

I know I had similiar amounts taken off as everyone else and I usually bruise really easily. I lost over 5 lbs. However like Thinker I started the arnica about a week before and took it til a week after.

The only other thing is maybe due to the factor that we are skinnier guys and could be sculpted more not as much tissue was left behind so less need for the drains?

[Linus]

Ok. I have a question for those whove had surgery recent or remembers theirs: do you find yourself itchy? I thought it was the glue from the tape but I realize that even my chest is itchy where there is no tape. I'm thinking they may have shave my chest and that's causing it?

[atomiczombie]

Ok. I have a question for those whove had surgery recent or remembers theirs: do you find yourself itchy? I thought it was the glue from the tape but I realize that even my chest is itchy where there is no tape. I'm thinking they may have shave my chest and that's causing it?

Mine has been SOOOOO itchy and I don't have any chest hair to shave. What's weird is that there is no where I can scratch that relieves the itch. I try to scratch where it seems to itch, but its all numb there. :|

[Nina]

okay...so, I don't know anything about most of what is being discussed here...
But, I do have a comment on the itching issue...some meds have itching as a side effect...I had it happen with a medication I had to take after a surgery...I started to have the strangest itching feelings....it was deep inside, and scratching didn't do anything to help...it wasn't a 'regular' kind of itching, though it was intense...
it's probably not worth saying, that never stops me, I'd suggest you (re) read all the possible side effects of any and all meds you're taking, or took, and see if that is one of the symptoms...and, if so, call your doctor...

I hope your healing is smooth and swift...all the best to you

Nina

[justkim]

Sorry for the intrusion. Linus I myself have had several surgeries and I usually get itchy from the beta-dine stuff they use, even though they *kinda* wipe it off. Also, take a cool shower and gently uses a wash cloth or one of those puffy bath thingys.. Key word here is gentle. Hopefully we can get a nurse in here to maybe give a better explanation. After surgeries all of the anesthesia has to come out some how and for me it comes out in my skin, even on area's not related to the surgery. I find that keeping hydrated and I keep my skin totally moisturized it makes it all much more tolerable.
By the way, congratulations!

Heck, Congratulations to everyone in this thread.


Ok. I have a question for those whove had surgery recent or remembers theirs: do you find yourself itchy? I thought it was the glue from the tape but I realize that even my chest is itchy where there is no tape. I'm thinking they may have shave my chest and that's causing it?

[Thinker]

Yep on the med's side effects and yep on post-surgical itching.

Some of it, too, is going to be little nerve endings that are waking back up.

Another thing y'all just reminded me of... My nipple grafts and the numb area on my right side started "pinging" after a couple of weeks. I was told that was when sensation was starting to come back. The nipple graft pings went on for a good year or more.

[The Oopster]

I don't remember a lot of itching except along the incision I think especially at the 5 to 10 day mark. It's a damn long incision so a lot of itchy area.

However I took minimal pain meds also, but have had itchiness from pain meds in the past but the itchiness was all over the body.

[atomiczombie]

I have been off pain meds for more than 2 weeks, and I am still itching!!

[Thinker]

I have been off pain meds for more than 2 weeks, and I am still itching!!

Yours could be from the return of sensation.

Just a guess...

[deb_U_taunt]

The itching was driving me crazy, but I am using aloe vera with Lidocaine. SO helpful.

[Camo Eagle]

I got a question for the guys who are a year out or more from top surgery: What did you use to lessen your scars during your first year? I hear a lot about silicone strips, has anyone used them? Any other products you guys can recommend? Thx in advance!

I used Palmers stretch mark cream in the tube (not pump - lotion), Bruise Balm from Glimmerance, Prosil (silcone balm in a tube like lip balm). Also a good moisturizer as soon as the skin closes/suture or strips removed. Also keep in mind this stuff needs to be done couple times a day for at least 6 mths, then daily for another 6 mths. Depending on how you do, maybe longer.

Ok. I have a question for those whove had surgery recent or remembers theirs: do you find yourself itchy? I thought it was the glue from the tape but I realize that even my chest is itchy where there is no tape. I'm thinking they may have shave my chest and that's causing it?

Mine has been SOOOOO itchy and I don't have any chest hair to shave. What's weird is that there is no where I can scratch that relieves the itch. I try to scratch where it seems to itch, but its all numb there. :|

Even though a nuisance, itching is perfectly normal part of healing. You should be able to tell if it from strips/adhesives, etc. I use the Benedryl clear gel in the lil squeeze bottle for all my itch needs. Its only thing that works for me, but everyone is diff.

[Corkey]

I've had several surgeries, but not top, anywho...Vitamin E oil can be used on scars to help heal and promotes lessening of scar tissue. It also helps with that ever present itch. Use after stitches are out, or after wound has closed. If you are itching from adhesive, use peroxide on the itch to remove the adhesive and replace with anti allergy tape.
This has worked for me every single time and the scars are hardly noticeable.

[Camo Eagle]

Just make sure that skin has closed on all wounds before you use any non prescribed items. This is very important. Use of antibac ointments are frowned upon because they can lead to overgrowth of other bac as well as cause resistance.

Use of peroxide can kill kill healing tissue. It depletes the O2 in order to kill the bat., but that also takes the O2 needed to grow the new tissue.

A good product is Allkare Adhesive Remover Wipes by Convatec, usually sold at Walgreens.

[Corkey]

I said to use peroxide on the adhesive, not the wound. Again Vitimen E oil should be used ONLY on closed wounds and AFTER stitches have been removed.

I did say that didn't I?

[TCB]

I'm going to answer your question and also another common question that's asked, simply so others will know what this takes, moneywise, to do, since this procedure is seldom covered by insurance at all.

I paid entirely out of my own pocket. Dr. V's fee, about $7750, included everything (he has his own accredited surgical center) except the lab pathology, which ran about $450. Surprisingly, my health insurance (FEHB) paid for that, minus a $38 deductible, which I paid.

I had to travel to Newport Beach, California, from here in Las Vegas, so by the time I added up the travel expenses (for my girlfriend and me), hotel, meals, etc., the total cost was right under $10K.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Are you happy with the results from Dr. V? If he is in Newport beach, that would be ideal for me. I'm still trying to figure out how to raise funds for my surgery. It's getting to a point, where I don't care what I need to do to make this happen.
I have Kaiser insurance, but I'm pretty sure they won't cover squat. I've asked my Endo about it, and he pretty much confirmed that.

[The Oopster]

Are you happy with the results from Dr. V? If he is in Newport beach, that would be ideal for me. I'm still trying to figure out how to raise funds for my surgery. It's getting to a point, where I don't care what I need to do to make this happen.
I have Kaiser insurance, but I'm pretty sure they won't cover squat. I've asked my Endo about it, and he pretty much confirmed that.

Hey cris did I ever show you my surgery? Dr V is who I went to. Yes he is in newport beach. He was more around 8k for me. Linus just had his with Dr. V so he would know the most current rates. Nice thing is you would cut down other costs with how close he is to you.

[Linus]

Hey cris did I ever show you my surgery? Dr V is who I went to. Yes he is in newport beach. He was more around 8k for me. Linus just had his with Dr. V so he would know the most current rates. Nice thing is you would cut down other costs with how close he is to you.

The total cost for me was about $8400 (including labs). However, since I've had some prior back issues apparently the insurance has no problem covering some of it. That has meant my actual out of pocket was $4900 (not including Lazy Boy costs, although I am wondering if I can write that off as a medical expense :blink: ).

I'm just about a week past the surgery but thus far have been happy. The reality is that the rest will be up to me and how I take care of my chest going forward. In another week I go for stitch removal I believe and a check up. I like that I don't have to visit constantly in person and can just email photos to him so he can see how I'm recovering. Saves time (which for me is more of an issue than money).

[Camo Eagle]

I said to use peroxide on the adhesive, not the wound. Again Vitimen E oil should be used ONLY on closed wounds and AFTER stitches have been removed.

I did say that didn't I?

My comments were not directed to you. I posted what I did, bc some are new out of surg., and the incisions may not be closed. Many of the top surgeons are now not using sutures, they are closing up the entire line with steri strips or some such product. So for some the adhesive IS directly on the entire incision.
I had 192 strips I believe. Some came off clean, others left a mess. Dr. even told me not to use soap & water until it was closed bc he wanted it to stay dry. He said those "nastys" covering it, were actually protecting it.
It was a happy day indeed when I could wash & shower.

2 of the most often misused OTCs after surg. is the 2 I mentioned. It was my intention to educate on those items. I know after my surgery, literally everyone I spoke too, offered a remedy idea for some facet of my Tx. For many yrs (some still do) Drs would tell you to clean the wound area w/ peroxide, then apply antibiotic ointment. As of 3 yrs ago, this is no longer the accepted standard. Some old die hards still refuse to move forward.

The source of my info is the textbook, handbook for wound care, and info given during one of the 1st Wound Care Certification courses held in the nation.

[atomiczombie]

My comments were not directed to you. I posted what I did, bc some are new out of surg., and the incisions may not be closed. Many of the top surgeons are now not using sutures, they are closing up the entire line with steri strips or some such product. So for some the adhesive IS directly on the entire incision.
I had 192 strips I believe. Some came off clean, others left a mess. Dr. even told me not to use soap & water until it was closed bc he wanted it to stay dry. He said those "nastys" covering it, were actually protecting it.
It was a happy day indeed when I could wash & shower.

2 of the most often misused OTCs after surg. is the 2 I mentioned. It was my intention to educate on those items. I know after my surgery, literally everyone I spoke too, offered a remedy idea for some facet of my Tx. For many yrs (some still do) Drs would tell you to clean the wound area w/ peroxide, then apply antibiotic ointment. As of 3 yrs ago, this is no longer the accepted standard. Some old die hards still refuse to move forward.

The source of my info is the textbook, handbook for wound care, and info given during one of the 1st Wound Care Certification courses held in the nation.

Yeah, my sutures were internal along my incisions. I had to have paper tape on them for 2 weeks. When I took the tape off they were pretty much closed except for some scabs. I left the scabs alone and let them come off by themselves. I could at that point shower but not let the water hit directly on my chest or rub it to dry off. I still can't do that yet. But its nice to be able to actually shower instead of having sponge baths. Anyhoo, my doc said no ointments or anything on my incisions once the tape came off. At this point the scabs are all gone and my wounds are closed. :)

[Turtle]

Itching could be:

healing, skin not 'breathing' so well because it is covered/wrapped, an allergic reaction - to tape, anesthesia, betadine, sumthin else...

hair growing back - nerves reconnecting - scar tissue forming....


Benedryl can help with itching for various reasons, you can try a dose or two and see if it makes a difference - it's good to have in the house anyway if someone has a bad reaction to something. Benedryl comes in pills, cream/gels, and spray - good for different things.

Mederma is really good for scar tissue, especially if your skin heals with keloids. I still put it on years after a burn when I feel deep tingles in that area. It is only for closed skin.

Cut nerves reconnect with anything from nothing to tingles to sharp zings to pain.

Linus, you are probably too soon for scar tissue and in the healing, hair growing, skin not breathing category - somewhere...just my opinion.

Good healing and blessings to all.

[Corkey]

My comments were not directed to you. I posted what I did, bc some are new out of surg., and the incisions may not be closed. Many of the top surgeons are now not using sutures, they are closing up the entire line with steri strips or some such product. So for some the adhesive IS directly on the entire incision.
I had 192 strips I believe. Some came off clean, others left a mess. Dr. even told me not to use soap & water until it was closed bc he wanted it to stay dry. He said those "nastys" covering it, were actually protecting it.
It was a happy day indeed when I could wash & shower.

2 of the most often misused OTCs after surg. is the 2 I mentioned. It was my intention to educate on those items. I know after my surgery, literally everyone I spoke too, offered a remedy idea for some facet of my Tx. For many yrs (some still do) Drs would tell you to clean the wound area w/ peroxide, then apply antibiotic ointment. As of 3 yrs ago, this is no longer the accepted standard. Some old die hards still refuse to move forward.

The source of my info is the textbook, handbook for wound care, and info given during one of the 1st Wound Care Certification courses held in the nation.

Did i quote you? No I did not. Assume what you will.

[TCB]

Hey cris did I ever show you my surgery? Dr V is who I went to. Yes he is in newport beach. He was more around 8k for me. Linus just had his with Dr. V so he would know the most current rates. Nice thing is you would cut down other costs with how close he is to you.

I figured I would probably need to prepare for 10k. But 10k is a lot of money.
Yes it is very convenient that Newport is nearby, and that would greatly save me some cash. I wish that Kaiser would cover something :(

[Linus]

I figured I would probably need to prepare for 10k. But 10k is a lot of money.
Yes it is very convenient that Newport is nearby, and that would greatly save me some cash. I wish that Kaiser would cover something :(

TCB, do an initial consult with Dr. V as his office might be able to get it covered in some fashion. It doesn't hurt to ask them as I know they've dealt with different providers. I didn't get it all covered but basically got about half was. Still better than nothing.

[TCB]

TCB, do an initial consult with Dr. V as his office might be able to get it covered in some fashion. It doesn't hurt to ask them as I know they've dealt with different providers. I didn't get it all covered but basically got about half was. Still better than nothing.

Thanks Linus. Do you know what he charges for a consultation?? What's his full name?

[The Oopster]

Thanks Linus. Do you know what he charges for a consultation?? What's his full name?

consultation is free!

http://www.newportsurgery.com/

call though! Don't email!

[The Oopster]

Thanks Linus. Do you know what he charges for a consultation?? What's his full name?

He supposeably does give some type of discount if someone referred you to him. So I would mention all three of our names. The more the merrier and maybe a better discount? Doesn't hurt!

[TCB]

consultation is free!

http://www.newportsurgery.com/

call though! Don't email!


Well crap, I just emailed him. AND I did mention that I knew a few people who just had their surgery done with him. I didn't mention names though.

Why not email? Does he not respond?

[Linus]

Well crap, I just emailed him. AND I did mention that I knew a few people who just had their surgery done with him. I didn't mention names though.

Why not email? Does he not respond?

The website email doesn't always go through. Easier to call than email (for the initial stuff anyways)

[The Oopster]

The website email doesn't always go through. Easier to call than email (for the initial stuff anyways)

what linus said. Everyone I have known that used that email never got a response and they weren't even sure where it went to, but they are very prompt and helpful via phone!

[TCB]

The website email doesn't always go through. Easier to call than email (for the initial stuff anyways)

what linus said. Everyone I have known that used that email never got a response and they weren't even sure where it went to, but they are very prompt and helpful via phone!


Gotcha. I guess I'll be making a phone call to them tomorrow. Thanks fellas.

[DapperButch]

Are you happy with the results from Dr. V? If he is in Newport beach, that would be ideal for me. I'm still trying to figure out how to raise funds for my surgery. It's getting to a point, where I don't care what I need to do to make this happen.
I have Kaiser insurance, but I'm pretty sure they won't cover squat. I've asked my Endo about it, and he pretty much confirmed that.

I believe that Aetna continues to be the only insurance that will cover male reconstructive top surgery, however, you can call your insurance directly, and ask.

You may find a doctor who is willing to adjust the ICD-9 code (medical/billing code) to breast reduction, but you would have to meet the criteria for a medically needed breast reduction, which is based on a number of things, including measurements of indentations in your shoulders from bra straps, a documented history of back problems due to chest size, etc.

(In regards to the above, I have not heard of any surgeons that fudge the ICD-9 code, but it would not surprise me if there were some surgeons out there who would be willing to do this due their empathy around transpeople's issues).

[The Oopster]

One never knows what insurance will covers. If you can somehow show a medical necessity one never knows what will happen.

The doctor who handles my testosterone told me that he got an mtf's bottom surgery covered. Something was off with her prostrate and they contacted her insurance and asked rather then putting her on meds would they cover surgery to have the testicals removed and they did.

[TCB]

I believe that Aetna continues to be the only insurance that will cover male reconstructive top surgery, however, you can call your insurance directly, and ask.

You may find a doctor who is willing to adjust the ICD-9 code (medical/billing code) to breast reduction, but you would have to meet the criteria for a medically needed breast reduction, which is based on a number of things, including measurements of indentations in your shoulders from bra straps, a documented history of back problems due to chest size, etc.

(In regards to the above, I have not heard of any surgeons that fudge the ICD-9 code, but it would not surprise me if there were some surgeons out there who would be willing to do this due their empathy around transpeople's issues).

One never knows what insurance will covers. If you can somehow show a medical necessity one never knows what will happen.

The doctor who handles my testosterone told me that he got an mtf's bottom surgery covered. Something was off with her prostrate and they contacted her insurance and asked rather then putting her on meds would they cover surgery to have the testicals removed and they did.


This is all very true. I asked my endo though, and he was very quick to respond that Kaiser will not cover it. He didn't exactly suggest attempting to work around it either. He basically told me there are two companies you can go work for that will cover it (I can't remember now which ones).
To my knowledge, I don't believe I have medical reasons for him to try and slip it through the cracks.....unfortunately (as bad as that it to say). I'm grateful for my health.

[The Oopster]

This is all very true. I asked my endo though, and he was very quick to respond that Kaiser will not cover it. He didn't exactly suggest attempting to work around it either. He basically told me there are two companies you can go work for that will cover it (I can't remember now which ones).
To my knowledge, I don't believe I have medical reasons for him to try and slip it through the cracks.....unfortunately (as bad as that it to say). I'm grateful for my health.

Look at this:

http://www.uclgbtia.org/transhealthupdate.html

[Corkey]

http://otrans.3cdn.net/fa908f9f867b4537a1_ihm6iipnp.pdf

Guys this is Medicare, this will apply to all of you sooner or later. We need to change how Medicare is effecting our community.

[DapperButch]

Look at this:

http://www.uclgbtia.org/transhealthupdate.html

Thanks for posting!

[TCB]

Thanks for that link Koop. I'm not really sure how to read into that, but I think when I see my Doctor next week, I'm going to touch on the subject again and see if he's interested in looking into it. It's worth a shot!

Off topic:

I need to get my passport by mid July. I know there are expediting services but here's my dilemma...wondering if anybody knows the answer to this:

My new name has been legally changed on my drivers license (including my gender marker on ID) and SS. However, my birth certificate has NOT been changed (name and gender). Will they be able to issue me a passport due to this discrepancy?
I called the post office and asked them. One person told me they can put it through assuming I have my court ordered name change forms (which I do).
But I hate to go on one post office attendants word.
Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this?

[TCB]

Look at this:

http://www.uclgbtia.org/transhealthupdate.html

Now that I think about it, I recall my Doc saying I would have to work for a UC to be eligible. I don't.

[The Oopster]

http://travel.state.gov/passport/npic/npic_898.html

maybe try calling them?

[TCB]

http://travel.state.gov/passport/npic/npic_898.html

maybe try calling them?

Well I'm going to have to tomorrow. I was just curious if anybody knew off hand.

[Thinker]

Thanks for that link Koop. I'm not really sure how to read into that, but I think when I see my Doctor next week, I'm going to touch on the subject again and see if he's interested in looking into it. It's worth a shot!

Off topic:

I need to get my passport by mid July. I know there are expediting services but here's my dilemma...wondering if anybody knows the answer to this:

My new name has been legally changed on my drivers license (including my gender marker on ID) and SS. However, my birth certificate has NOT been changed (name and gender). Will they be able to issue me a passport due to this discrepancy?
I called the post office and asked them. One person told me they can put it through assuming I have my court ordered name change forms (which I do).
But I hate to go on one post office attendants word.
Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this?

When I went to get my updated passport, I turned in my old passport which had my former legal name and sex designation. I submitted a certified copy of the court order for the name change and the doctor's letter for the sex designation. (I also showed my state ID which had already been updated with both.)

Based on that, my assumption is that the name change will not be an issue; and you will need the doctor's letter for the change of sex.

If this is your first passport, you will need to submit your birth certificate. Your court order for name change will trump the name on the birth certificate, however.

Does that make sense?

[TCB]

When I went to get my updated passport, I turned in my old passport which had my former legal name and sex designation. I submitted a certified copy of the court order for the name change and the doctor's letter for the sex designation. (I also showed my state ID which had already been updated with both.)

Based on that, my assumption is that the name change will not be an issue; and you will need the doctor's letter for the change of sex.

If this is your first passport, you will need to submit your birth certificate. Your court order for name change will trump the name on the birth certificate, however.

Does that make sense?

Thinker,
This is my first passport. I went and picked up a certified copy of my original birth certificate at the vital statistics office.
So you're saying that since I have the court ordered name change documentation, that should be sufficient for them to change it on my passport? I know I need to have it changed on my birth certificate, but the postal passport worker told me that they would likely issue me a temporary passport (1-2 yrs) while I submit my name change for my birth certificate, due to that process taking 6 months-1 yr (according to the clerk at vital statistics).
I'm just hoping that I can at least get the passport with my new legal name, I'll have to get a Dr. letter for the gender marker on my passport and for it to all go without a hitch! I'm staying optimistic!

[Thinker]

Thinker,
This is my first passport. I went and picked up a certified copy of my original birth certificate at the vital statistics office.
So you're saying that since I have the court ordered name change documentation, that should be sufficient for them to change it on my passport? I know I need to have it changed on my birth certificate, but the postal passport worker told me that they would likely issue me a temporary passport (1-2 yrs) while I submit my name change for my birth certificate, due to that process taking 6 months-1 yr (according to the clerk at vital statistics).
I'm just hoping that I can at least get the passport with my new legal name, I'll have to get a Dr. letter for the gender marker on my passport and for it to all go without a hitch! I'm staying optimistic!

I think you'll be good for getting your legal name on the passport. Your birth certificate is required since this is your first passport, and the court order for your name change shows that the person named on the birth certificate is now legally named TCB.

Good luck with it! Let us know how it goes.

[greeneyedgrrl]

In my profile I use the I.D. Transmasculine Butch. In other instances I also refer to myself as a Transman, Transguy.

this is a new id for me... would you mind explaining what it means to you? i could guess... but no guarantees i'd be right! ;)
thanks in advance!

[greeneyedgrrl]

I feel invisible. It's painful.

i can definitely identify with that! i am invisible in the queer community as well as the hetero community.


That being said, I worry about how I will be perceived after transition. Will I be shunned but the queer community as no longer being part of the tribe? Will femmes no longer be interested? Will my queerness be invisible? I don't consider myself straight- no because I am attracted to masculine people. I am not. But because I am attracted to femmes. Femmes aren't straight women. I have little interest in straight women. Does that make me a jerk? I hope not. But will I trade being seen as a female for no longer being seen as queer when I go on T?? What is your experiences guys? Do any of you feel the same?

i think all this depends on where you are and who you are interacting with. i hope that the queer community is are evolved enough that you find acceptance more often than not. i know we have both here, althugh i like to think we are moving in a trans-positive direction. and no i don't think it makes you a jerk...we can't help who we're attracted to.. but (being a queer femme) maybe i'm biased! :p

[TCB]

I think you'll be good for getting your legal name on the passport. Your birth certificate is required since this is your first passport, and the court order for your name change shows that the person named on the birth certificate is now legally named TCB.

Good luck with it! Let us know how it goes.

Thank You, I'll let you know how it turned out. Hopefully pain free :)

[greeneyedgrrl]

I have a question. Lately when Nick and Gryph and I have been out in public, it has seemed to me that people have been going out of their way to call us "ladies."

Now if you've known me for a while, you already know that it makes me uncomfortable to be called "lady" because, after all, that's my dog's name... well, okay, really it's because of the stereotypical crap I was force-fed growing up about a lady is always quiet and demure and never laughs out loud (I cannot stop laughing when something is funny), a lady never shows the least hint of temper (I cuss like a sailor! sheesh), a lady never sweats (omgawd, in PHOENIX? seriously?! Are you insane?!)---but when I am out with a transman who is wearing a dress shirt and tie, someone who does not even LOOK female, and people go out of their way to call us ladies.... well it just makes me cringe!

I suppose one of the big cringe factors is their attitude; they are quite obviously going out of their way to be extra nice and to reassure us all that "they can tell [the transman] is actually really female, no worries, we accept you as a girl, we aren't going to embarrass you by not noticing your femaleness" omg it just makes me CRINGE....

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?

I would ask Nick directly, but yanno he and Gryph are off shooting paper people dead and I don't want to forget the question---so hey, Nick, would you mind answering too? Do you get this treatment more when I'm with you?

Thanks in advance for your answers, everyone. I appreciate your time.


this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

[Thinker]

this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

I believe there is an honest-to-goodness mix of people who do those things.

I believe there are some who feel your ID must be that of the masculine....maybe even male.....and they are wanting to "have your back" and let you know they see you and they get it.

I believe there are some who are being a-holes and trying to cut at you.

And I believe there are some who are real "surface-y" with that stuff. His/her mind registered "male" so they went with "sir" and now they're on to the next thing.

There's no way of knowing for sure what one individual means by it at any given time, IMO.

[Linus]

Welp. Went for my 2 week visit. The nipple grafts seemed to have worked and being hairy did not help. Dr. V removed my tape from across my scars and pulled all the hair as well :blink: That said, he said I should be able to toss the ace bandage in a week (at most but possibly before then). I'll have the "skin coloured" tape on my scars for 3-4 months but could be "shirtless by next week!

He also said I could start running in about 3 weeks (I assume weight lifting would be a couple of weeks after that). Either way...

:hangloose:W00T!!!!:hangloose:

[Gemme]

this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

[Soon]

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

Before my husband transitioned, we had the same experience as Gemme in Central Florida and SW Ontario. Mostly the term *ladies*...not a fan of that word in general but especially hated it when we were out together for obvious reasons.

[Thinker]

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

[Gemme]

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

I do agree and I do appreciate someone making an attempt to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem but it feels like it's like 'see how open minded and awesome I am?' instead of considering the dress, style and mannerisms of the person before you. I know it's hard to decipher gender presentation and that the wrapping, in many cases, does not determine what's in the box but how hard would it be to just cut that one word off? They could still acknowledge us by just saying 'how may I help you?" or 'do you have any further questions?' and leave it at that.

[atomiczombie]

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

Here in California and especially in the Bay Area, people do make an effort to say ladies and ma'am and such, and I do think it's because they are trying to acknowledge me in a positive way. However, it is annoying. I can see how it is hard for not only straight people, but I have seen this with some queer folks too, to get the pronouns right. I look like a butch, not a man at this point. There are many butches who don't want to be called sir. So I can see how it can be confusing for some female-bodied masculine folks to say, "hey I'm not a sir", and people like me saying, "um, it's sir not lady". I try to be aware that a lot of people have the best of intentions when getting it wrong about my gender identity.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Here in California and especially in the Bay Area, people do make an effort to say ladies and ma'am and such, and I do think it's because they are trying to acknowledge me in a positive way. However, it is annoying. I can see how it is hard for not only straight people, but I have seen this with some queer folks too, to get the pronouns right. I look like a butch, not a man at this point. There are many butches who don't want to be called sir. So I can see how it can be confusing for some female-bodied masculine folks to say, "hey I'm not a sir", and people like me saying, "um, it's sir not lady". I try to be aware that a lot of people have the best of intentions when getting it wrong about my gender identity.

hmmm... i'm in south bay... and we have a lot of butches here, or we used to anyway (our genderqueer and trans pops seem to be growing/becoming more visible and b/f pops shrinking/becoming less visible). the butches i referred to earlier, aren't binding and they get "sir" when we go out. it's like the gen pop see the short hair and masculine dress and look no further. i like the idea of just leaving the pronouns out entirely. especially since sometimes it is hard to tell and isn't always appropriate to ask.

[Star Anise]

When I officially "came out" my first "girlfriend", I use quotation marks because as it turns out he was actually trans, I had absolutely no idea about his gender dysphoria and was generally clueless.

It is a real shame because I know now, in my complete ignorance I probably made his experience much worse, which I feel much grief about still. I have gone out of my way to educate myself through online sources, blogs, youtube (which I have already mentioned in another thread has a wonderful trans community) academic discourse...basically any source I could get my hands on...But I am still very conscious of the fact that it is not a "one size fits all" case.

He was the first and only trans guy that I have been with and it didn't work so well...

Where I am, there is a small trans community, and I know that I have felt myself attracted to a few trans guys, and to be frank I would hate to miss out on an opportunity to have a special relationship with someone that happens to be trans...

But the thing is, I am just so damn scared of putting my foot in it, because though I have tried hard to become more educated, I am not trans myself.

which leads me to my squeamish question...

How do you recommend opening up this sort of communication?

As in, this is somewhat new to me, and I am not sure that I will totally understand your experience, but I appreciate who you are and I don't want to hurt or patronise you?

I hear complaints from the trans community about cisgendered people just being a pain in the ass, I really don't want to be one those people :(

Actually any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

[Liam]

Where I am, there is a small trans community, and I know that I have felt myself attracted to a few trans guys, and to be frank I would hate to miss out on an opportunity to have a special relationship with someone that happens to be trans...

But the thing is, I am just so damn scared of putting my foot in it, because though I have tried hard to become more educated, I am not trans myself.

which leads me to my squeamish question...

How do you recommend opening up this sort of communication?

As in, this is somewhat new to me, and I am not sure that I will totally understand your experience, but I appreciate who you are and I don't want to hurt or patronise you?


I think its important to establish a friendly interest in someone, before asking questions related to being a transperson, unless you are attending some kind of panel and the audience has been invited to ask questions. While I prefer the direct, to the point questions, when fielding such questions from someone I don't know, I wonder if they consider me a freak or if they have a fetish—and I'm not inclined to be very vulnerable. Have you read The Testosterone Files, by Max Wolf Valerio, Both Sides Now, by Dhillon Khosla, or Just Add Hormones, by Matt Kailey? Perhaps a question relating to one of these books, would be a good way to open a conversation with someone.

This forum is also a good venue to ask questions and gather info from other people's posts.

[atomiczombie]

When I officially "came out" my first "girlfriend", I use quotation marks because as it turns out he was actually trans, I had absolutely no idea about his gender dysphoria and was generally clueless.

It is a real shame because I know now, in my complete ignorance I probably made his experience much worse, which I feel much grief about still. I have gone out of my way to educate myself through online sources, blogs, youtube (which I have already mentioned in another thread has a wonderful trans community) academic discourse...basically any source I could get my hands on...But I am still very conscious of the fact that it is not a "one size fits all" case.

He was the first and only trans guy that I have been with and it didn't work so well...

Where I am, there is a small trans community, and I know that I have felt myself attracted to a few trans guys, and to be frank I would hate to miss out on an opportunity to have a special relationship with someone that happens to be trans...

But the thing is, I am just so damn scared of putting my foot in it, because though I have tried hard to become more educated, I am not trans myself.

which leads me to my squeamish question...

How do you recommend opening up this sort of communication?

As in, this is somewhat new to me, and I am not sure that I will totally understand your experience, but I appreciate who you are and I don't want to hurt or patronise you?

I hear complaints from the trans community about cisgendered people just being a pain in the ass, I really don't want to be one those people :(

Actually any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

As a transguy, I am always grateful when someone asks me my preferred pronoun. I am not at all adverse to someone asking me questions about my experience as a trans person. But I think Liam is correct: don't start asking questions as the first thing you talk about with him. However, if your questions are respectful, then it shouldn't be an issue. Saying "this is somewhat new to me, and I am not sure that I will totally understand your experience, but I appreciate who you are and I don't want to hurt or patronise you" is actually perfect. That is being respectful. I hope this helps.

[EnderD_503]

But the thing is, I am just so damn scared of putting my foot in it, because though I have tried hard to become more educated, I am not trans myself.

which leads me to my squeamish question...

How do you recommend opening up this sort of communication?

As in, this is somewhat new to me, and I am not sure that I will totally understand your experience, but I appreciate who you are and I don't want to hurt or patronise you?

I hear complaints from the trans community about cisgendered people just being a pain in the ass, I really don't want to be one those people :(

Actually any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

I think the most important thing is pretty much the sentiment you've expressed here: that you're willing to hear what trans people have to say. In many respects I think it's like any relationship or friendship with anyone else. You want to hear the person out, respect their identity without necessarily centering your interaction around that particular identity (broadcasting them to the world as the token trans/gay/butch/femme etc. friend) get to know what they're comfortable with, and generally show respect towards them. Just the way some people claim that they're trans or queer "allies" and yet they spend more time telling trans or queer people how to feel than actually listening to what trans or queer people have to say. Or making trans or queer people feel silly or guilty for not being comfortable with certain pronouns, anatomical words, slurs, jokes, "opinions" about their identity, references and so on.

As far as communication, some transfolks just aren't comfortable with talking about trans issues with people they don't know well, or even at all. Some just want to transition and forget about ever being trans, others want to remain as visibly trans as possible, and that might affect how comfortable they are with talking about their experience with transition or gender identity/expression. As far as asking about pronouns and such, I don't think most transfolks would take offense if you asked about a preferred pronoun. I think many transfolks just appreciate when people make an effort to use the correct pronouns/names, to refer to their bodies in a way that doesn't trigger dysphoria. Also just wanted to add that reading is great, but each trans person is different, so you can't always assume something is true for all transguys because one transguy happens to feel that way. I guess just remaining open and respectful.

[SoberBoi]

It's time for me to ask the stupid question of the week....I am transgendered so I dont know what is "normal" anymore BUT...do butches who are NOT trangendered identify with the word "woman"? .... confused in NJ....lol

[Thinker]

It's time for me to ask the stupid question of the week....I am transgendered so I dont know what is "normal" anymore BUT...do butches who are NOT trangendered identify with the word "woman"? .... confused in NJ....lol

Some do and some don't.....depends on each individual.

:)

[Apocalipstic]

I have not read the thread, but I have a question...and its likely a stupid one.

How much does being on testosterone change someone as a person. For example can the testosterone make someones reactions way more aggressive than they were before? I am unclear as to how to interact with the Transmen in my life. What is OK and not OK to tell them that used to maybe be ok....?? Like if I am venting and don't need help, just someone to listen...etc.

This may be more of a Soffa question, is there a Soffa thread?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't think anything should become not ok when we are communicating with our chosen family and friends. T anything is not some pass to be or act like an assclown...

At least that's how I handle the guys, trans, men in my life..

[DapperButch]

I have not read the thread, but I have a question...and its likely a stupid one.

How much does being on testosterone change someone as a person. For example can the testosterone make someones reactions way more aggressive than they were before? I am unclear as to how to interact with the Transmen in my life. What is OK and not OK to tell them that used to maybe be ok....?? Like if I am venting and don't need help, just someone to listen...etc.

This may be more of a Soffa question, is there a Soffa thread?

I am not on T.

However, from my understanding if a person was mild mannered before T, there is not reason to expect that they are going to become these raging people.

It is like a second puberty, but with testosterone this time (just like teenage boys). IF the guy on T feels some increased aggressiveness, he just learns to control it like any other guy. I have heard guys say that if they were a "hot head" before T that it was a bit harder to manage after they got on T. But they learn to. Like Snow said, no free passes!

You interact with them like any other person in your life. It is not like they are aliens, Apoc! :lol2:

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think anything should become not ok when we are communicating with our chosen family and friends. T anything is not some pass to be or act like an assclown...

At least that's how I handle the guys, trans, men in my life..

I am not on T.

However, from my understanding if a person was mild mannered before T, there is not reason to expect that they are going to become these raging people.

It is like a second puberty, but with testosterone this time (just like teenage boys). IF the guy on T feels some increased aggressiveness, he just learns to control it like any other guy. I have heard guys say that if they were a "hot head" before T that it was a bit harder to manage after they got on T. But they learn to. Like Snow said, no free passes!

You interact with them like any other person in your life. It is not like they are aliens, Apoc! :lol2:

Oh goodness, I how I am nto sounding like I think anyone is an alien!!! :eatinghersheybar:

What I am wondering is how to deal with someone changing from where I could vent to them about anything and have for 20 years to now them acting on what I am venting about rather than just listening.

There is a point where this changes and the person really is different. Not worse, not bad...just a different person.

Is this Testosterone related?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would be honest and say, hey!! I need you to listen and just listen... If they listened before why not now? No amount of T should give anyone the right to go around posturing or imposing themselves on your behalf...:)

[Apocalipstic]

I would be honest and say, hey!! I need you to listen and just listen... If they listened before why not now? No amount of T should give anyone the right to go around posturing or imposing themselves on your behalf...:)

Thank you! I wanted to make sure saying that was ok and reasonable with the testosterone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you! I wanted to make sure saying that was ok and reasonable with the testosterone.



Testosterone ass clown pass does not exist!!!

Transitioning does not equate the I'm Tarzan you Jane shenanigans!

[T D]

Just speaking from my own personal experience here. I find that I tend to be more aggressive when I'm stressed out about something. That's usually my clue that I'm stressed and not really realizing that I am.

Needless to say, transition is pretty stressful on several different levels. So perhaps it's not necessarily the T, but perhaps partially related to the transition on some other kind of level.

Of course then, there are some people that seem to think this is more of a "male" behavior and actually do it for that reason.

Just a thought.

[Thinker]

Oh goodness, I how I am nto sounding like I think anyone is an alien!!! :eatinghersheybar:

What I am wondering is how to deal with someone changing from where I could vent to them about anything and have for 20 years to now them acting on what I am venting about rather than just listening.

There is a point where this changes and the person really is different. Not worse, not bad...just a different person.

Is this Testosterone related?

I don't know if I will be able to articulate this well, but I'll give it a shot.

Testosterone *does* change quite a few things about how a person "is". However, it's not as simple as......T was introduced into the system and BINGO---a change has occurred.

I think it is the fact that the individual on T is now perceived and received differently by society at large. The changes in how things go for him on a daily basis cause him to change the way he interacts with others.

An example from my "book" is me when I'm one-on-one with my chiropractor's assistant (female, currently pregnant). When we talk about how she is feeling and her hormones and blahblahblah, I am very measured in my responses because there are times I start to say things that would surely raise an eyebrow.........things I just should not know so well.

I'm still not sure I'm explaining my thoughts on this very clearly.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't know if I will be able to articulate this well, but I'll give it a shot.

Testosterone *does* change quite a few things about how a person "is". However, it's not as simple as......T was introduced into the system and BINGO---a change has occurred.

I think it is the fact that the individual on T is now perceived and received differently by society at large. The changes in how things go for him on a daily basis cause him to change the way he interacts with others.

An example from my "book" is me when I'm one-on-one with my chiropractor's assistant (female, currently pregnant). When we talk about how she is feeling and her hormones and blahblahblah, I am very measured in my responses because there are times I start to say things that would surely raise an eyebrow.........things I just should not know so well.

I'm still not sure I'm explaining my thoughts on this very clearly.

So being seen as male may have more to do with acting more aggressively than the actual testosterone.

I can definitely tell a difference in interacting with all of my friends who are on testosterone I knew before and now. Especially after the "puberty" phaze.

Priorities are different.

[Rufusboi]

I have been on T for a year now and it has not changed my personality at all. I was not an ass before T so why should I be an ass after T.

Maybe your friends are using the excuse of being on T just to be an ass without taking resposiblilty.

T rage is over exagerated and only used as an excuse for bad behavior.

Rufus

[atomiczombie]

I was on T for a year, and 5 months of that was the full dose. My personality did not change. There were stress factors that went along with being on T, but they weren't from the T itself. They were related to things that came up because I was on T. Make sense?

However, that did not make me a cranky guy, just more anxious. I don't think T fundamentally changes your personality. If he had aggressive tendencies before, those might be more noticeable as he lives in a world that expects that more from him.

[Thinker]

So being seen as male may have more to do with acting more aggressively than the actual testosterone.

I can definitely tell a difference in interacting with all of my friends who are on testosterone I knew before and now. Especially after the "puberty" phaze.

Priorities are different.

Yeah......if we're talking about being aggressive....which I wasn't really focusing on. I was more talking about a general way of "being" really. For some, yeah, that could be about being more aggressive.......not necessarily rage either because I see them as two very different things.

As with my previous post, these are just my opinions. :)

[EnderD_503]

So being seen as male may have more to do with acting more aggressively than the actual testosterone.

I can definitely tell a difference in interacting with all of my friends who are on testosterone I knew before and now. Especially after the "puberty" phaze.

Priorities are different.

Agree with Rufus, the whole T rage thing is individual at best, if not an all out myth. I've noticed that a lot of guys will use testosterone as an excuse to say and do things that they wouldn't do/say before as far as social acceptability. I think with some guys there's a lot of machismo that goes on that actually has little to do with the testosterone itself, and more to do with insecurity about masculinity, trying to relive an adolescence they never had or just trying to live up to new social expectations on what men are "supposed" to do/say.

I also think its highly individual as well. Remember that a lot of guys may have been much more insecure before testosterone, and as such were never very assertive because they weren't comfortable in their own skin. Once they feel comfortable in their own skin, they may come out of their shell, so to speak. The more assertive person may actually be who they really were, but were never confident enough to be because of their bodies.

All in all, I really think it depends on the individual, not on what testosterone does or doesn't do.

[Apocalipstic]

Great answers with so much insight! Thank you all! :)

[kannon]

update on the t-kingdom binders.

After 3 months of not receiving the binders and no response to my emails they finally contacted me via email. They said the binders were returned to them. They asked me for more money to resend the binders. I was a little upset cause it wasn't my fault. It wasn't successfully delivered to my house. For all I know they didn't even mail it. Any, I gave them more money to send it again. Three days later they tell me I didn't give them enough money. They ask me to give them more money for shipping fees and they would reimburse me for what I paid a few days earlier. I told them to forget about it and refund all my money. They refunded the $20 shipping fees but not the money I paid for the binders. When I ask them about that they said it was past the deadline for a refund. Really? I sent them several emails and they didn't respond for months. They have the binders. This business is a serious joke. They probably don't don't even have the funds to refund my money. Really horrible business practices.

[J. Mason]

Kannon sorry to hear about this mess, I hope this matter gets settled soon. You know a report to the BBB might be a good thing for others out there to know that their business and money practices are bad.

[kannon]

Talking about T: I don't seem to be as effected by or influenced by my emotions.

[Gemme]

update on the t-kingdom binders.

After 3 months of not receiving the binders and no response to my emails they finally contacted me via email. They said the binders were returned to them. They asked me for more money to resend the binders. I was a little upset cause it wasn't my fault. It wasn't successfully delivered to my house. For all I know they didn't even mail it. Any, I gave them more money to send it again. Three days later they tell me I didn't give them enough money. They ask me to give them more money for shipping fees and they would reimburse me for what I paid a few days earlier. I told them to forget about it and refund all my money. They refunded the $20 shipping fees but not the money I paid for the binders. When I ask them about that they said it was past the deadline for a refund. Really? I sent them several emails and they didn't respond for months. They have the binders. This business is a serious joke. They probably don't don't even have the funds to refund my money. Really horrible business practices.

I agree with J. Mason. You should report this to the Better Business Bureau. Also, consider Yelp and other online review sites.

This company has some serious problems and they are taking advantage of their customers.

[Liam]

Given the fact that T-Kingdom is based in Taiwan, I don't know that reporting them to the local Better Business Bureau would be very effective. Spreading the word to those who might want to do business with T-Kingdom, will probably have a greater impact on their business.

[wolfbittenpoet]

Definitely hit up the different sites so people know. I had issues with T Kingdom just getting information so I decided not to buy. Glad I didn't send for them.
Sorry you had bad experience though.

[lettertodaddy]

Pardon me if this has been asked before, and please understand that I mean no ill will by it, but this is something that I have been curious about for a while now. I'm going to need a little space to work it out, so bear with me, if you don't mind. :)

Typically speaking, I like woman-identified butches, meaning that she embraces those sex characteristics/biological characteristics that make her female, and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger. :eyebat:

[atomiczombie]

Pardon me if this has been asked before, and please understand that I mean no ill will by it, but this is something that I have been curious about for a while now. I'm going to need a little space to work it out, so bear with me, if you don't mind. :)

Typically speaking, I like woman-identified butches, meaning that she embraces those sex characteristics/biological characteristics that make her female, and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger. :eyebat:

It's different for everyone, and I don't think there is a particular thing you can point to and say, "this is where butch ends and transman begins." It's important to keep in mind that who you are on the inside and your physical sex don't always match up in the hetero/cisgender-normative categories. I, for example, identify as a transguy, and not just simply male. The trans is part of who I am. There are guys who ID as male only but were born with female bodies. There are self-identified butches who have or want top surgery but still consider themselves female. There are male-ID'd butches who don't want to physically transition, and some who do but still consider themselves to also be butch. There are butches who consider BUTCH to be their gender. Gender isn't something that can be quantified and put into a spectrum where you can easily parse it into categories of trans or butch, etc. Butch can mean different things to different people, or it can be a both/and type of thing. The best thing to do is ask each individual what their ID means to them. I don't think asking someone that is going to ruffle any feathers, so long as it is done respectfully. Asking someone their preferred pronoun instead of just assuming it is one way or the other, is respectful too.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful, lol. It's just complicated and there is no way of getting around that.

[lettertodaddy]

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think. :)

[Liam]

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger. :eyebat:

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

[lettertodaddy]

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

Thank you for your honest reply, Liam. I really appreciate it.

[DapperButch]

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think. :)

I think that atomiczombie really hit the nail on the head with his post.

To answer the question in the simplest form... There is no place where butch ends and transman begins, they are separate identities...until they no longer are.

In terms of butch always equaling woman/female, as atomic said, many would argue that. Some would say that "in the beginning", butch = woman/female. Some would argue that. Depends are where you were/are/what you read about "the beginning".

[Corkey]

In the beginning there was the Human, somewhere along the line we all wanted to be special, and voila gender markers, sexual preferences, linear thinking. Till one day we all jump off the line and return to the circle where we are all equal, special in our own right, and relate to each other the way we are want to be called.
Gender is a construct of the human mind, it is not our sex, or our end of being, except when it is, and then if we want.
I am exhausted and waxing poetic.

[kannon]

I agree with J. Mason. You should report this to the Better Business Bureau. Also, consider Yelp and other online review sites.

This company has some serious problems and they are taking advantage of their customers.

Given the fact that T-Kingdom is based in Taiwan, I don't know that reporting them to the local Better Business Bureau would be very effective. Spreading the word to those who might want to do business with T-Kingdom, will probably have a greater impact on their business.

Definitely hit up the different sites so people know. I had issues with T Kingdom just getting information so I decided not to buy. Glad I didn't send for them.
Sorry you had bad experience though.

Yeah, I may challenge the charge through my bank and paypal. Hopefully, paypal will redflag them and stop letting them do business (exchange money) through them. I'm just so busy right now. I'm going to graduate school full-time, working full-time and remodeling my house. I just put up 3 new ceiling fans. Oy vey, I need a wife, a partner, an amigo/amiga. :)

Hopefully, no one else will be advantage of by them. I just want to warn everyone about this company because they are widely known in the trans community and many people recommend them. I've ordered from them twice. The first time I had no problems. The only complaint I had about the one binder I received was the shoulder straps. The straps are made out of a hard inflexible material that pooches out as the binder rides up.

Overall, I feel like the company is a scam. I'll never give them a dime of my money again.

[Greyson]

and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?


I appreciate that your question here and your other posts have been done in a respectful way. Many of the guys have already given their takes on this and really many here have been answering this question and similar ones for a few years now.

Now, I will give you my version. I have wondered for years, where does Butch end and Transman begin. For me, it is a blurry line. I have always seen "Butch" as a third gender. I have never seen myself as a woman, female bodied, yes, but not the same as other women. Not better, just not the same.

I cling to my identity as a butch because it is how I have seen myself for most of my life, since my teen years. Back in the day, there was not the "Trans" option. This opened up quite a bit for myself and others similar to me. It changed my thinking about gender. For me, I can no longer stand by the binary model of gender. Male or Female and nothing in between. I have "transitioned" but that has only aligned my outer presentation with more of how I see myself, masculine appearing. On my inside, I am pretty much the same person.

I do not want to be a "man." I want to express who I am, how I feel on the inside. I feel and express primarily in the masculine. I also am very cognizant of my history, I was born into a female body. I do not view this as a mistake. I see it as part of my life journey and why I am here. In fact being born into a female body and primarily expressing as masculine has been a gift, a plus. For many years I did not see it as a gift, now I do.

For me, how could I ignore where I came from? Where this round of my journey began? I am fortunate that I have an identical twin sister. I have had this feminine expression mirroring me and I mirroring her for a lifetime. We are made of the same DNA and yet express so differently.

There are times I do use the term "Transman" to explain myself. In my mind and for me, Transman and Butch are at times the same. This is not true for others. I think to make it easier at times, I just use the short hand and inclusive term, Queer to self identify.

[lettertodaddy]

Thank you for your response, Greyson. You've given me much to think about.

[ManOMan]

Wow I had a post I spent a lot of time writing and accidentally deleted it.
LOL, I guess that wasn't, meant to be shared.....

The bottom line of it all is that everyone has different physical, emotional, mental and spiritual reactions to taking hormones. T is a very powerful substance.

I feel it's inappropriate that anyone says anything is real or unreal, for someone else (specifically here) based on taking T.


:praying:

[sanee66]

HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

[Corkey]

Um some clarification I feel is in order. How I have sex is not who I am. Transgender is not the same as Transexual, except when one claims that as their Identity. Masculine energy can be claimed by Femmes, Butches and Transgendered individuals. Femmes strap, Butches strap, Trans strap, and there are plenty who don't.
I hope you will do some reading in the threads and understand that sex isn't who people are.
Welcome to the site.

[Greyson]

First welcome to the site. There is a great deal of material here to read on this site. Do a thread search. You will find threads started by "Significant Others" of Trans and/or Butches discussing similar questions you have. I would say, read the words carefully of what people are saying. Try not to color what you are reading with your own subjectivity. If you are not sure of what the poster is saying, go ahead and ask them for clairifacation. Remember that commuication requires listening as well as talking. ( I have to remind myself of that one myself.)

Finally, do not personalize posts you are reading. Evaluate the information, "take what you want, and leave the rest."



HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

[sanee66]

sorry about the post, just hard to express myself sometimes. I know what a person does is not what they are and i will try to figure out what i am wanting to say and express it better. just a small town girl who never really had anywhere to discuss this type of thing before. Sorry again

[DapperButch]

sorry about the post, just hard to express myself sometimes. I know what a person does is not what they are and i will try to figure out what i am wanting to say and express it better. just a small town girl who never really had anywhere to discuss this type of thing before. Sorry again

Hi, sanee. I know Corkey and he didn't mean any harm! He is a good guy.

I hear you saying that you are seeking a masculine energy person who straps when making love. Just an FYI: You will find butches who identify as male and strap, but will also find butches who identify as female who strap. So, if the issue for you is the way they make love, you may find that in either identifying butch.

Then of course you have men who identify as transgender or transsexual and may or may not take testosterone. Often they strap, as well (you just need to ask!)

I hear you that it is hard to find people (butches/transmen) in small towns.

There is a general singles thread here (but I don't believe it is a "pick up" thread), and I think that there are some butch/femme/trans dating sites. You could ask about that in the singles thread. I think there is also a singles femme/transguys thread, as well.

Welcome to the site and I hope that it makes you feel less alone as a femme (check out the femme zone for some connection with other femmes!)

[Corkey]

I'm just blunt, not much emotion attached to logic and theory, except if its personal, which this wasn't. I'm married so I came to the question in an educational and informative vein.
Dapper's right my bark is worse than my bite, unless one is on the receiving end of the bite. :):fastdraq:

[Ebon]

HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

That would be frustrating. For the longest time I did not know where I fit into the community because I was attracted to femininity and the types of women that wore make up, high heels etc were hard to come by. They were either taken or straight. If I were you I would maybe find a queer group/church or bar if that's your scene close by and start meeting people.

[sanee66]

Hey no worries, just hard to express myself, and not always sure what different terms would mean. I grew up in a small town and moved close to Memphis about 7 years ago. Just started getting out last year at the local center and meeting other people and doing things with them. They are a great bunch of women and going there probably saved me since i was having a hard time personally when i first went. I just know that I miss that male energy I had been around for years and am still looking for it. Once again, sorry if i had offended anyone.

[Corkey]

We're a thick skinned bunch no worries.

[The Oopster]

Hey no worries, just hard to express myself, and not always sure what different terms would mean. I grew up in a small town and moved close to Memphis about 7 years ago. Just started getting out last year at the local center and meeting other people and doing things with them. They are a great bunch of women and going there probably saved me since i was having a hard time personally when i first went. I just know that I miss that male energy I had been around for years and am still looking for it. Once again, sorry if i had offended anyone.


http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/index.php?pageid=Reunion

I suggest if you live near memphis that you make plans to go to little rock in october for the reunion (above link) You'll find lots of the energy there!

[kannon]

HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

I understand what you're saying about male energy. I display my own brand. I'm totally the opposite from Corkey. How I express myself sexually is a part of who I am. A reflection of my desires, power, vulnerability, thoughts, past experiences, etc. My behavior, whether its in the bedroom, at work,or at play is a part of me. I don't think that energy is necessarily something you see but feel. Be ready cause when it happens....Sparks!!!

[Reader]

Rather than make it specific to FTMs or MTFs, figured one thread should suffice. So, all those embarrassing questions you wanted to ask but figured or knew were kinda impolite, ask here. No guarantees you'll get an answer but you can ask. :)


I am not trans in any way. It is very confusing, in certain ways, to me.

I have a few questions which some may either flame me for or feel are really ignorant (true) and offensive (trying not to be). I am posting here because I have faith that the title of this thread is genuine, and because I genuinely do not understand these particular aspects of the FTM culture...and I cannot think of a better place to ask than this thread.

I assure you that: 1. I AM ignorant, which is why I would like to ask and become more educated, 2. I am NOT intentionally trying to be divisive, critical or offensive (the opposite actually), and, 3. I am asking because I genuinely am interested in your various answers.

Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?


Thanks in advance!

Also, it has been mentioned to me that I have a certain posting style and writing style, which are apparently different from other posters. I suppose this may be true.

However, as was accidentally misunderstood in another thread, I am NOT a Moderator, nor am I trying to impersonate a Moderator, nor am I trying to cause trouble to get the attention OF a Moderator.

I am simply and genuinely interested in understanding the FTM community more than I currently do. If you'd rather PM me, that would be great, as well.

[DapperButch]

Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?



I am not FTM, I am TG. However, I am going to comment here, as I think my thoughts could be helpful to you.

1)There are people who define as a man, but not as male. I am thinking that you are meaning male when you say man. You may want to clarify that, so that you get answers from the group you want to hear from.

2)Additionally, are you only speaking to FTMs who are taking testosterone? I think that you might be. Again, you may want to clarify, as there are many people who define as transsexual or FTM who do are not on testosterone, yet in their hearts and minds live their lives as "male". They may or may not pass for male in society.

3) This site is not for butch and femme lesbian women. This site is for butches and femmes who may or may not define as lesbian. They also may or may not define as women. The site is also for queers (which include all sorts of genders/sexes), even though they do not have this in the title. The Admin have made this clear.

My sense of you Hunter (in general), is that you are genuine in your posts. I believe you to be genuine in your interest in this subject, here. I hope that others see this, as well.

I hope you get the answers you are seeking.

[Tawse]

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?



I'm not an FtM but I have my own personal answer for this one. I don't consider myself a "lesbian" and I don't consider my wife to be "lesbian" (nor does she).

I am queer. I am not a Woman - but rather somewhere between male and female and I happen to have a female body.

Gillian is not a lesbian because even though she IS a woman - she is in love with someone who is not and is sexually attracted to a wide spectrum on the "butch" scale - but not bio male. (to her bio males have a different energy than FtMs / Butches / Gender Queers)

So I would say that not even all of those who don't ID as FtM consider themselves Lesbians. :)

[Tawse]

I am not FTM, I am TG. However, I am going to comment here, as I think my thoughts could be helpful to you.

1)There are people who define as a man, but not as male. I am thinking that you are meaning male when you say man. You may want to clarify that, so that you get answers from the group you want to hear from.

2)Additionally, are you only speaking to FTMs who are taking testosterone? I think that you might be. Again, you may want to clarify, as there are many people who define as transsexual or FTM who do are not on testosterone, yet in their hearts and minds live their lives as "male". They may or may not pass for male in society.

3) This site is not for butch and femme lesbian women. This site is for butches and femmes who may or may not define as lesbian. They also may or may not define as women. The site is also for queers (which include all sorts of genders/sexes), even though they do not have this in the title. The Admin have made this clear.

My sense of you Hunter (in general), is that you are genuine in your posts. I believe you to be genuine in your interest in this subject, here. I hope that others see this, as well.

I hope you get the answers you are seeking.


Or I could have waited a few minutes and just said "What Dapper Said"... ;) lol

[DapperButch]

Hunter -

I'm not an FtM but I have my own personal answer for this one. I don't consider myself a "lesbian" and I don't consider my wife to be "lesbian" (nor does she).

I am queer. I am not a Woman - but rather somewhere between male and female and I happen to have a female body.

Gillian is not a lesbian because even though she IS a woman - she is in love with someone who is not and is sexually attracted to a wide spectrum on the "butch" scale - but not bio male. (to her bio males have a different energy than FtMs / Butches / Gender Queers)

So I would say that not even all of those who don't ID as FtM consider themselves Lesbians. :)

Hunter -

See? lol

I wrote my post b/c I was concerned that the responses you would receive is people wanting to clarify your language and such (kinda like me), and I am thinking that you don't want the discussion to go that way. We like to derail around here!

tawse, I echo your thoughts here!

[DapperButch]

Or I could have waited a few minutes and just said "What Dapper Said"... ;) lol

Or I could have waited until you wrote your post! lol

[theoddz]

Okay, I'll bite.

Here's a little background on me, so you'll know exactly where my answers are coming from. Please don't read into my answers and take them for what another guy might say from his own experiences and/or perspective. I own only my own response.

I'm 50 years old, completely and legally transitioned (Female to Male), and some/most may also label me as "transexual". I've been on T (Testosterone) for nearly 5 years now and I began my physical, medical and legal transition at the age of 45. Before that, I ID'd as a Stone Butch, and before that, as a lesbian, but that was because that was the only thing I knew. It was the closest thing to "fitting" than the alternative, which was straight woman. I came out as a "gay woman" when I was 19 years old, amongst the rough and tough world of the Women Marines. We were probably what you'd call "dykes"....tough ones. Oh, and incidentally, I was a member here on these sites before I began medical/physical/legal transition, so a lot of the community here knew me before, when I ID'd as Stone Butch.....but not "female" ID'd.

Now for your questions:


1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes? The dyke/queer world was my community before I transitioned, so why would they or the GLBTQ community at large, stop being my community?? I've had friendship, community and acceptance here, so I see no reason why I should leave.

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women? Who says I am interested in having a sexual/romantic relationship with a gay woman?? This is my community, not necessarily a "dating pool" for me. I don't look at it that way, but since you asked, the women I am attracted to, and who are attracted to guys like me tend to fall within the "Queer" spectrum and that may or may not overlap into different sexual orientations for these women. That's their business. I guess you'd have to ask some of the women of this community why they are attracted to men like me. I'm here for the community, not a hookup, or necessarily a relationship. This site is not gay/lesbian exclusive...it is "Queer". There are many women here who see me as the man I am and are attracted to me for just that.

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women? My sexual orientation is Queer. My sexual orientation has nothing to do with my gender ID. Again, this site is also for Queer ID'd people. This site is ****NOT**** just for lesbian butch and femme women.

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here? Probably much the same, I expect, and I would imagine that it would probably have much to do with how he would/might conduct himself. Respect is the key here. I don't think I've ever been disrespectful to any of the other members here and I can't say that anyone has ever been disrespectful to me. I think we all are looking for acceptance and community.

I hope that helps. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[julieisafemme]

I hope it is ok for me to respond here. I wanted to answer Theo's question about why a lesbian Femme would partner with a transman or TG Butch.

I am a lesbian Femme. I am a woman. I am partnered with a Transmasculine Butch who has transitioned. He does not use the descriptor FTM for his identity. I am attracted to queer masculinity. My partner has that. I have met some transmen who do not have a Butch feeling to them. So all I can tell you is that I am drawn to Butch energy in whatever form it may take. I could also partner with a female identified Butch. I met my partner and he and I clicked immediately. I fell in love with him, the person.

My partner does not identify as a lesbian. I do. I don't see any issue with that and I do not feel the need to change my identity. Queer probably defines me better because that encompasses his gender identity.

I have to agree with you Theo that this site is not only for lesbian Butches and Femmes. My partner is Butch. He is not a lesbian.






Okay, I'll bite.

Here's a little background on me, so you'll know exactly where my answers are coming from. Please don't read into my answers and take them for what another guy might say from his own experiences and/or perspective. I own only my own response.

I'm 50 years old, completely and legally transitioned (Female to Male), and some/most may also label me as "transexual". I've been on T (Testosterone) for nearly 5 years now and I began my physical, medical and legal transition at the age of 45. Before that, I ID'd as a Stone Butch, and before that, as a lesbian, but that was because that was the only thing I knew. It was the closest thing to "fitting" than the alternative, which was straight woman. I came out as a "gay woman" when I was 19 years old, amongst the rough and tough world of the Women Marines. We were probably what you'd call "dykes"....tough ones. Oh, and incidentally, I was a member here on these sites before I began medical/physical/legal transition, so a lot of the community here knew me before, when I ID'd as Stone Butch.....but not "female" ID'd.

Now for your questions:


1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes? The dyke/queer world was my community before I transitioned, so why would they or the GLBTQ community at large, stop being my community?? I've had friendship, community and acceptance here, so I see no reason why I should leave.

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women? Who says I am interested in having a sexual/romantic relationship with a gay woman?? This is my community, not necessarily a "dating pool" for me. I don't look at it that way, but since you asked, the women I am attracted to, and who are attracted to guys like me tend to fall within the "Queer" spectrum and that may or may not overlap into different sexual orientations for these women. That's their business. I guess you'd have to ask some of the women of this community why they are attracted to men like me. I'm here for the community, not a hookup, or necessarily a relationship. This site is not gay/lesbian exclusive...it is "Queer". There are many women here who see me as the man I am and are attracted to me for just that.

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women? My sexual orientation is Queer. My sexual orientation has nothing to do with my gender ID. Again, this site is also for Queer ID'd people. This site is ****NOT**** just for lesbian butch and femme women.

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here? Probably much the same, I expect, and I would imagine that it would probably have much to do with how he would/might conduct himself. Respect is the key here. I don't think I've ever been disrespectful to any of the other members here and I can't say that anyone has ever been disrespectful to me. I think we all are looking for acceptance and community.

I hope that helps. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Linus]

][/B]

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?


1. Much like Theo, this is my community that I've known and gotten comfortable with in the last 5 years. I have many friends who are butch or femme.

2. My g/f is a pansexual femme. We met when I first started transitioning. My attraction is to femme queer women.

3. I'm different in that my experience includes life perceived as a butch/tomboy and that I wasn't raised as a straight boy/man.

4. Welcomed as anyone. As admins have stated this site is beyond just B/F and open to everyone as long as we're respectful of the differences we have.

I think one of the things that is important to recognize is that this site is more than just butch/femme lesbians. That it includes queers, pansexuals, and more.

[EnderD_503]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

And here's where the problem begins :p

Not everyone who is trans, who is born "female"-bodied or with XX chromosomes, who has "transitioned" to "male"-bodied or who is unable/does not want to "transition" (here meaning hormones, surgery etc.), but who identifies as male or transguy or any similar identity, considers themselves an FtM or even "a man." That is a huge problem when it comes to understanding the trans community. For myself, I use the label FtM only to find supportive environments (though, luckily, irl, simply "trans" is most often used so I never have to do the whole "FtM" thing in most places) where I might find like-minded people or people with similar experiences. But when it comes down to it I don't (and can't ever see myself) identify as Female-to-Male or as transsexual. I was born into a body that was assigned female, but as far as I'm concerned I've always been male in my mind. Some would even argue that because a person has always identified as male internally, that any body attached to them is technically male, even if it doesn't fit accepted physical definition (which seems to be changing, anyways). The more research is devoted towards trans people and the reality of their minds/bodies, and the exploration of sex differentiations beyond what is clearly visible, the more the binary appears to not be all encompassing. While male and female do exist, I don't see various trans folks and intersex folks falling into that binary, or at the very least seem to blur the lines fairly thoroughly.

When it comes to my own identity, yes, I consider male pronouns to be the correct pronouns, and the way I've always expected my body to turn out has always been male-bodied. But I've never considered myself female or a girl or a woman, and so as far as I'm concerned I have not, and do not continue to "transition" into anything, because I've always been and considered myself a male person even if I was never fully accepting or considered that way by others. I'm simply a different kind of male or perhaps simply a different kind of human being altogether.

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

Because I am only really attracted to queer women. I was assigned "female" at birth (which at times seems both a blessing and a curse, since I abhor the body I was born into, but on the other hand wouldn't have it any other way at this point, as far as what I've had to go through in order to be recognised as who I truly am. I would never give up my experience in the butch/femme community.) Many transguys began their journey to self-discovery and acceptance through the lesbian or queer female community, and I don't think they should have to give that up, or give up their primary attractions for the sake of labels.

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

I just want to correct here and say that I'm interested in relationships with queer women. If I meet a woman who identifies as a lesbian, but who I hit it off with, and who treats me with respect as a male identified butch and transguy and I respect her identity, in turn, then I see no problem with it if she doesn't. That is what I love about the LGBTQ community. We are not often as confined by labels and rigid binaries...though we can be if we want to be :p

And this comes down to part of the reason why I won't date straight women. I am not a trans individual who wants to be "stealth" or appear as a "normal hetero couple." Many lesbians or queer women seem to worry that when they date a transguy/trans male/butch/masculine identity that they will lose their visibility as a lesbian. Hell, I'm equally as worried about maintaining my visibility as a stone butch, queer, transguy general individual, and I would never want to be mistaken as a hetero couple, though I know that can happen at times. For me, many straight women are from a completely different reality than I am from, and there's really nothing for me or for them in that relationship.

I was initially drawn to the lesbian/queer woman community because I didn't know where else I fit, until I started to accept what I always knew. And in the end, it turned out I fit pretty well into that queer community at its most diverse. I wouldn't have discovered my identity and accepted myself without the lesbian/queer female/woman community. Today, it has more to do with what I've come to learn about many queer women over time. Queer women do not often follow the same rigid binaries (though they can), nor are they often interested in them (though they can be). They do not rely on a traditional dynamic (though, sometimes, they can), and in such a relationship neither of us need to be dominant or assumed to "lead" the relationship (though, when a woman/couple wants to, they can...and still be queer...the beauty of being queer, really). Queer women are very good at being reliant on themselves and having a good relationship with themselves, instead of being obsessed with being defined by their partner (unless they want to be). All these things I bring up may outwardly appear to be personality-driven, but to me it really comes out in the physical appearance and presence of an individual as well. I don't want a hetero relationship, with a woman who's interested in fancy black dress dinner parties and some trophy-wife/bread winner dynamic. I want a woman who's a queer activist, who is invested in "queerness" because it's a part of who she is. And with that "queerness" comes an understanding of the beauty of gender diversity. The understanding that, no, I don't want to be a "normal straight guy," but neither am I a female/woman. And I feel that's reciprocal. Someone who I can understand as consciously happy with their own identity as a woman and/or female and/or feminine, but who's identity as a woman/female/feminine individual is divorced from what she enjoys and what she wears and what she does.

I really don't know how to explain it any better than that. Other than the simple phrase of: "I don't want a heternormative relationship or hetero environment." Queerness isn't bound by what is "acceptable" or "traditional" or "respectable" or "normal." It's simply the dynamic two people create regardless of how they identify. Anyone who even identifies as straight would defy what I look for in a relationship simply by us being in a relationship together.

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

Well, I was born into a different situation than the average straight guy off the street. I was assigned "female" at birth, though have never identified with that marker as long as I can remember. Though I've often abhorred that fate over the span of my life, at the same time it's given me experiences I would never want to give up, even for the most awesome set of cock & balls in the world :p It has also led me to understand myself as simply a different kind of male/guy/whatever. Probably the most important thing is that I'm queer and attracted to queer women (and most often, queer femme women). This community/the general b/f community outside this forum's context, even, isn't one I just randomly waltzed into.

Also, the butch/femme dynamic has not (even historically) been exclusively lesbian. Many butch/femme individuals identify as queer rather than lesbian. Transguys and trans individuals have been involved in the butch/femme community, most likely, since its inception. Or at least we, today, have occasionally heard the voices/words/echos of those who were around in the early days, who were trans-identified (or using modern terminology, anyway). It may not have been the norm, but it was present.

Lastly, butch and trans are not mutually exclusive. A transguy or trans-identified male/masculine identity can also identify as butch. Butch can mean many things, not only woman and lesbian, but third gender, genderqueer/fluid, trans, transmale etc. Just look at some of those who have posted in response to you already!

[/quote]4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?[/quote]

Well, I think one of the key words there is: straight

Some here use straight to define their relationship/preference, but many use queer or gay or some other word to describe their relationship/preference. Is a straight, cis guy coming in with the same background and intent? A guy who has never been involved in the queer community in the least? I mean, I can understand lesbians or queer women occasionally even pairing with gay or queer men. It's not a completely foreign occurrence. But a random straight dude? I think there's a difference there. Or maybe that's just me.


Also thought I'd drop this link here. You may be interested in reading it, to better understand how some trans people see their sex/gender as beyond the usual binary.

http://tranarchism.com/2010/11/26/not-your-moms-trans-101/

Sorry for the long ass answer. I've never been good at keeping shit short and sweet, and tend to ramble a lot. Hope it answers your questions anyways. Also helps me to find better ways to explain myself to people in my day to day life, so thanks for asking these questions. It's served as a mental exercise for myself as well, as far as kind of putting myself into words and putting the community/communities I love so much into words. I never quite seem done with that sort of exploration.

[Ebon]

I am not trans in any way. It is very confusing, in certain ways, to me.

I have a few questions which some may either flame me for or feel are really ignorant (true) and offensive (trying not to be). I am posting here because I have faith that the title of this thread is genuine, and because I genuinely do not understand these particular aspects of the FTM culture...and I cannot think of a better place to ask than this thread.

I assure you that: 1. I AM ignorant, which is why I would like to ask and become more educated, 2. I am NOT intentionally trying to be divisive, critical or offensive (the opposite actually), and, 3. I am asking because I genuinely am interested in your various answers.

Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?


Thanks in advance!

Also, it has been mentioned to me that I have a certain posting style and writing style, which are apparently different from other posters. I suppose this may be true.

However, as was accidentally misunderstood in another thread, I am NOT a Moderator, nor am I trying to impersonate a Moderator, nor am I trying to cause trouble to get the attention OF a Moderator.

I am simply and genuinely interested in understanding the FTM community more than I currently do. If you'd rather PM me, that would be great, as well.






1. Obviously to catch a glimpse of two of them making out.

2. See answer number 1.

3. I'm not any different. I'm here to see some action!!

4. Well since I'm not any different, see answer 3.

Real Answers (because Gemme said I had to lol)

1. Actually the real answer is I like nice positive people and some of them just happen to be dykes. Personally my friends come in all shapes, sizes, colors, gender identities and sexualities. Lot's of people in this big world.

2. We don't TRY to date lesbians or at least most of the transguys I know don't. I date people that I have a mutual attraction to. What they want to call themselves is up to them.

3. We are very different (well most of us anyway). We have experienced life with the whole world seeing us in a female identified body. Straight men have not. Everyone has been over the whole not just a lesbian website thing, ok we're good there.

4. I'm sure if he was cool he would be received as cool.


These questions and your perspective about this site are interesting because I've actually heard someone say with their outside of their head real voice say that when butches join the website they are expected to transition after a few months you know because it's something to do when get a wild hair up your ass. I hope that answered some of your questions.

[The Oopster]

Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?


Thanks in advance!



1. I actually hang around with very few dykes per say. If I hang around with more than I realize it's because I tend not to categorize my friendships that way. I hang around people of all sizes, shapes, ethniticities, and who fit numerous categories.

2. I personally am not dating at this time. When the time is right I have stated many times that I hope not to limit myself to one specific area and thus maybe miss out on something terrific. I hope the same that when someone looks at me they don't throw me into a specific category and not give me a chance. I hope that a gay womans sole criteria for not dating me wouldn't because I identify as transgender. Likewise I hope that a straight womans sole crieteria for not dating me wouldn't be due to the fact I wasn't born with a penis. I hope that whoever dates me dates me for a lot more than that. That they can look beyond those things to the inner core of who I am. Likewise I hope to look beyond labels to the inner core of who someone else is.

3. Like others have stated before, this site isn't limited to just butch and femme lesbian women. Like many of they others even though down deep inside of me I always identified as male, I was unable to recognize that and claim that. Coming to that point was a process and this community was a part of that process. Fortunately when I came to this community there were other ftms and transmen on this and similiar sites. If they hadn't been here who knows how long it would have taken me to come to terms with who I am. To give back to the community I stay here for the same reason, that some other lost soul may have someone to identify with. If I would have had to gone to a transgendered or ftm site to find my people I may never have found them. Like others have shared what transgendered and ftm encompass is vast. I really don't claim the ftm label but like someone else stated I come to this thread and frequent that community because it's the closest match to who I am. I identify as a tranny guy or transmale. To many outside the community that looks the same, and so that label sometimes gets thrown on me or sometimes I take it out of laziness because it's the closest thing out there that those outside the community may understand or have heard of.

4. It's actually hard to imagine a straight male coming to this site unless they have some history with this community. Chances are they have some interest. Maybe it's to educate themselves, maybe it's just to cause problems, maybe it's just to perv. Hopefully this community would be welcoming if the person is considerate and respectful of the site and the people on it. But unless it happens people can only say how they think and hope people would respond.

[apretty]

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.



1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?

[CrankyOldGuy]

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.

Amen Sister!

[Liam]

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.

Regardless of your sincerity Hunter, your questions are rude.

[DapperButch]

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.

Oh. Interesting. So do we know you Hunter? Here I am/others are, assuming you are "new" to the queer sites (and I believe you know we think this), and you are not?

Well, that kind of sucks. Not cool, dude.

Thanks, apretty.

[Greyson]

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.

Oh. Interesting. So do we know you Hunter? Here I am/others are, assuming you are "new" to the queer sites (and I believe you know we think this), and you are not?

Well, that kind of sucks. Not cool, dude.

Thanks, apretty.

When I first read Hunter's questions I remember a conversation I had with apretty a few years back with similar questions. At the time, I did not realize my own internalized transphobia was at play.

I did not respond to any of Hunter's questions because I tend to try and give some thought to my feelings and responses now. During this time of mulling over that Hunter did post these questions, I did notice the Hunter has not come back to this thread and responded to any of the posts in response to her intitial post, questions.

My question to you Hunter, is where are your responses, comments to all of the people that took the time to respond to your questions?

[DapperButch]

Regardless of your sincerity Hunter, your questions are rude.

When I first read Hunter's questions I remember a conversation I had with apretty a few years back with similar questions. At the time, I did not realize my own internalized transphobia was at play.

I did not respond to any of Hunter's questions because I tend to try and give some thought to my feelings and responses now. During this time of mulling over that Hunter did post these questions, I did notice the Hunter has not come back to this thread and responded to any of the posts in response to her intitial post, questions.

My question to you Hunter, is where are your responses, comments to all of the people that took the time to respond to your questions?

Personally, on the surface, I don't think the questions were rude.

If it had been a butch or femme lesbian who had never been around transpeople before and then came upon the Planet, I think that they are not surprising questions.

There are people out there who live in small communities and do not have contacts with a diverse group of people. Since the person admitted to being ignorant of information and said they were not meaning to be disrespectful, I took them at their word.

It is a shame that it may be a person who was really trying to just be a jerk. It really sets members up to not be so trusting in the future, ya know?

Greyson, I think this person has not returned b/c she has been "found out".

Oh well. Sad.

[SoNotHer]

I wanted to thank you all for your writing. I appreciated your answers very much. What you've written is beautiful in its profundity and intelligence. And you handled the questions with grace, taking the higher ground.

I have much to learn about the trans community, but I believe I will learn much here. I also believe you fall in love with a person. I would consider myself lucky to fall in love with someone as brave, self aware and self determined as the posters who responded here, a beautiful exception to the many who are unconscious or afraid to be who they are.

A while back, I attended a lesbian weekend retreat in Galveston. A transgendered person wanted to come along, which created some friction, particularly upsetting one member. I said something to the group like, "Well it didn't stop you from inviting me." They paused, wide-eyed and dumbfounded and then laughed nervously. And then I said, "Really, who's to say who any of us are who should be and what company we should keep?" I was startled and angry. I didn't want to believe that we who had been excluded and stereotyped would in turn do the same thing. People began to reconsider and decided to do the right thing. As it turned out, the lesbian-identified woman who protested too much fell in love with the person she would have rejected. In fact, I think it started that weekend.

So I wonder if Hunter has reasons beyond what she may know or is ready to embrace. For her sake, I hope she has that self discovery sooner rather than later and learns to embrace the queer community in all its beautiful and intelligent complexity.

For my own sake, I am grateful for you and your writing.

[Thinker]

Posting as a member...not as a moderator...

I think the fact that Hunter Green has not returned to stay involved in this particular conversation is telling. I admit that I was suspicious of her intentions which is why I opted not to take the time I know it takes to thoroughly and thoughtfully answer those types of questions.

Unlike some, I do think we owe it to each other to educate others (both in and out of this community). I know some don't like that role, but I don't mind it so much. However, if I don't feel right about where the person is coming from then I ignore the request and go on about my business. I don't think that is hypocritical nor do I think it is rude. My intuition is my rudder, and I owe it to myself to pay attention to it; it keeps me safe.

I've been around a long time, and I feel pretty good about the way I navigate these boards. I don't think I'm an expert nor do I think my way is the best way; I'm also not given to offering unsolicited advice. But if you don't mind me saying it, I recommend not giving people who rub you the wrong way ANY of your energy. If you feel the poster is trying to get a rise out of you, don't give 'em one. That really is the best revenge, in my opinion.

Now I'm not saying HG is guilty of anything here, but I am saying that something about that post didn't feel right to me so I opted to pass it on by. If I was off base.......well......I've been off before. No harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned.

[*Anya*]

I want to thank all of you for your very honest answers. I would have asked them, perhaps differently; but had some of the same questions myself.

One time, when I first joined the planet, I simply stated that I did not understand self-identified lesbians dating trans individuals because it was out of my frame of reference. I was immediately flamed. It was very, very upsetting to me. I even explained that I was partnered with a butch lesbian for 19 years and all of our friends were lesbians and that I simply had never been exposed to gender concepts. All of you must understand that there have been light-year changes in gender, trans and the lesbian community in almost 20 years of time. We lived a very vanilla life which probably had a part in it too.

It was not a trans or male-identified person that flamed me but I did not want to blunder again and the experience made me afraid to ever even bring up anything about gender again or any questions I may have had. I also would never deliberately hurt anyone's feelings. It is just not me.

I can only speak for myself but I am very appreciative to have gained some knowledge and insight I did not have before. Thank you.

Peace,

[J. Mason]

Ugh how did I miss this!

I find those questions to have a motive behind them, something just isn't adding up and the fact that Hunter hasn't returned makes me wonder.

[J. Mason]

Ok guys how do yall feel when someone uses a female pronoun to describe you to someone else?

[Linus]

Ok guys how do yall feel when someone uses a female pronoun to describe you to someone else?

Annoyed and disrespected but it does depend on who it is. If my grandmother does it, well.. *shrug*.. she's 80+. I cannot imagine how hard it is for her to change her thought process after using the same one for the last 80 years! That said, when colleagues do it, I gently remind them. I've had a few who have forgotten, realized it and apologized profusely (one of my closest colleagues and buddies does this on occasion but he self-corrects pretty quickly and feels really bad when he does his slips).

The question that may be asked is this: is it deliberate or a mistake? If it's a mistake, let it slide a little. If it's deliberate then you need to speak to them about it.

[Thinker]

Annoyed and disrespected but it does depend on who it is. If my grandmother does it, well.. *shrug*.. she's 80+. I cannot imagine how hard it is for her to change her thought process after using the same one for the last 80 years! That said, when colleagues do it, I gently remind them. I've had a few who have forgotten, realized it and apologized profusely (one of my closest colleagues and buddies does this on occasion but he self-corrects pretty quickly and feels really bad when he does his slips).

The question that may be asked is this: is it deliberate or a mistake? If it's a mistake, let it slide a little. If it's deliberate then you need to speak to them about it.

Ditto

(10 character rule)

[J. Mason]

I am coming across this with some close friends of mine and they do correct themselves at times when I don't say anything right up front, I guess the silence tells them that I am perturbed about it.

I am not sure if its deliberate or by mistake, it is hard to tell sometimes.

I have been nice and gave them a list of terms to educate them but IDK if they even bother to listen to me or not.

[Linus]

I am coming across this with some close friends of mine and they do correct themselves at times when I don't say anything right up front, I guess the silence tells them that I am perturbed about it.

I am not sure if its deliberate or by mistake, it is hard to tell sometimes.

I have been nice and gave them a list of terms to educate them but IDK if they even bother to listen to me or not.

How long has it been since you came out? How often do they see you? Keep in mind that you have felt this way your whole life but they were used to what you were before (as far as what they saw and what society thought you were). It make take them time.

[J. Mason]

I have been out about the last 3 years and the people I am referring to were the first to know, granted my family doesn't know a thing (which is another story in itself). I see them on a regular basis or talk to them on a regular basis as well.

[Linus]

I have been out about the last 3 years and the people I am referring to were the first to know, granted my family doesn't know a thing (which is another story in itself). I see them on a regular basis or talk to them on a regular basis as well.

Then the time has come to have a little sit down with them and explain how this is hurting you. That it is important for them to be more proactive about keeping the right pronouns and that it could even jeopardize your safety if said near the wrong "company".

[J. Mason]

Then the time has come to have a little sit down with them and explain how this is hurting you. That it is important for them to be more proactive about keeping the right pronouns and that it could even jeopardize your safety if said near the wrong "company".

Agreed!

(blick 10 character minimum)

[Thinker]

I have been out about the last 3 years and the people I am referring to were the first to know, granted my family doesn't know a thing (which is another story in itself). I see them on a regular basis or talk to them on a regular basis as well.

Hey... Can I assume you have not taken any steps toward a medical/physical transition?

And please, please know there is NO judgment in asking that question. And please know it makes no difference to me and most others *here*.

However, if there aren't physical changes for them to *see* then it's most likely a very abstract thing for them so they're really struggling.

Society in general sees who they perceive to be "female" and use she/her, and they see who they perceive to be "male" and use he/him. And that's pretty much all they see and know. It doesn't make it right or good or bad or whatever......it's just the way it is in the mind's eye of most people you will encounter.

Based on my experiences, there's a pretty fine line between those who "slip up" and those who are being shitty. Most of us want to give people the benefit of the doubt. When you don't and you call them out on it, then they can always cop to just making a mistake and then all of a sudden *you* are the jerk. It's a tough road to navigate. :(

If these people are important to you, then just keep at it and give 'em a little more time. If you feel they are deliberately disrespecting you, then I would cut 'em loose.

[J. Mason]

Hey... Can I assume you have not taken any steps toward a medical/physical transition?

And please, please know there is NO judgment in asking that question. And please know it makes no difference to me and most others *here*.

However, if there aren't physical changes for them to *see* then it's most likely a very abstract thing for them so they're really struggling.

Society in general sees who they perceive to be "female" and use she/her, and they see who they perceive to be "male" and use he/him. And that's pretty much all they see and know. It doesn't make it right or good or bad or whatever......it's just the way it is in the mind's eye of most people you will encounter.

Based on my experiences, there's a pretty fine line between those who "slip up" and those who are being shitty. Most of us want to give people the benefit of the doubt. When you don't and you call them out on it, then they can always cop to just making a mistake and then all of a sudden *you* are the jerk. It's a tough road to navigate. :(

If these people are important to you, then just keep at it and give 'em a little more time. If you feel they are deliberately disrespecting you, then I would cut 'em loose.

I am very pre op, trying to get the money for the things I need to take the step in the right direction.

I try to be patient but patience isnt one of my virtues, but hell I am looking for support ya know.

[Thinker]

I am very pre op, trying to get the money for the things I need to take the step in the right direction.

I try to be patient but patience isnt one of my virtues, but hell I am looking for support ya know.

I totally understand, J. I hope you know that. And I hope you know we support you here!!

I was just trying to figure out why this might be so damn challenging for your pals. Like I said, it doesn't excuse it or make it better; but sometimes it helps to think about it at a different level......like what goes on with *most* people with regard to this topic and not just those in our immediate circle.

Like Linus said, a sit-down-heart-to-heart is definitely in order.

[J. Mason]

I totally understand, J. I hope you know that. And I hope you know we support you here!!

I was just trying to figure out why this might be so damn challenging for your pals. Like I said, it doesn't excuse it or make it better; but sometimes it helps to think about it at a different level......like what goes on with *most* people with regard to this topic and not just those in our immediate circle.

Like Linus said, a sit-down-heart-to-heart is definitely in order.

Thank you guys for the understanding I am glad to have these threads on the forum.

I am in total agreeance a good heart to heart is in order.

[The Oopster]

Hey... Can I assume you have not taken any steps toward a medical/physical transition?

And please, please know there is NO judgment in asking that question. And please know it makes no difference to me and most others *here*.

However, if there aren't physical changes for them to *see* then it's most likely a very abstract thing for them so they're really struggling.

Society in general sees who they perceive to be "female" and use she/her, and they see who they perceive to be "male" and use he/him. And that's pretty much all they see and know. It doesn't make it right or good or bad or whatever......it's just the way it is in the mind's eye of most people you will encounter.

Based on my experiences, there's a pretty fine line between those who "slip up" and those who are being shitty. Most of us want to give people the benefit of the doubt. When you don't and you call them out on it, then they can always cop to just making a mistake and then all of a sudden *you* are the jerk. It's a tough road to navigate. :(

If these people are important to you, then just keep at it and give 'em a little more time. If you feel they are deliberately disrespecting you, then I would cut 'em loose.

I totally understand, J. I hope you know that. And I hope you know we support you here!!

I was just trying to figure out why this might be so damn challenging for your pals. Like I said, it doesn't excuse it or make it better; but sometimes it helps to think about it at a different level......like what goes on with *most* people with regard to this topic and not just those in our immediate circle.

Like Linus said, a sit-down-heart-to-heart is definitely in order.

I experience what thinker is talking about sort of in the reverse. Now that I have had top surgery and been on T for awhile despite the F on my drivers license and my feminine birth name(although it is more unique) I am most often sir'd. The only exception is on the phone and there it's about 50/50.

In fact i had an accident recently and the officer sir'd me and started to correct himself and I told him he had it right the first time. And he said he wondered but wasn't sure.

I have also found that the more confident I am in my masculinity the more I am also perceived that way. Again not implying anything on your part. The few times I think I am mammed, i am not even sure if that has happened it's where my mind space is.

As far as family and friends go. Family still she me and like linus said there are a few that just get a pass. My dad tries, even my mom has been better then expected. In fact if they run into a some of the peeps here with me in arkansas it will be interesting how that will effect them. Dad I think it will help seal the deal. Mom hopefully won't have a break down!

People on my periphel sometimes slip and now I correct them or just look at them and they correct themselves. I have given them a few years and now it's time to get it right.

Another thing to bring up and i'm not implying this with you at all it's just another observation I have made. Are we sometimes over sensitive to what people use as far as gender markers? Like I said sometimes I'm not sure what others have used and think it's where my brain is at. The reason I bring this up is because of a situation I had about a month ago. I approached these people for an interview. I saw 2 younger boys and two woman (masculine woman but yet at the same time I completely perceived them as female) I asked them if they would be willing? We have this method of who we are to ask and I said "So are you still willing to do the interview" All of a sudden two of the party landed on me for calling the one sir. I was blind sided. I didn't know where or how they thought I said that. It happened that the one woman was mtf. I apologized and said I don't know where or how sir came out becaust i'm trans and I totally saw her as a her. I hadn't even perceived her as trans until the others jumped on me. Later I realized that when I said "So are you" they thought I said "sir".

Hence I just wondered how often are we and those close to us over sensitive to what is used? Maybe react when there is no need to react?

[EnderD_503]

I apologized and said I don't know where or how sir came out becaust i'm trans and I totally saw her as a her. I hadn't even perceived her as trans until the others jumped on me. Later I realized that when I said "So are you" they thought I said "sir".

Hence I just wondered how often are we and those close to us over sensitive to what is used? Maybe react when there is no need to react?

I don't think transpeople are too sensitive when it comes to what people use as gender markers. I think bringing it down to oversensitivity opens us up to that being broadened to: "Well, that's not really transphobic, you're just too sensitive."

I think that the situation you described is one that doesn't occur frequently even if it might on a rare occasion, and so I don't think can constitute an oversensitivity, but the result of a reality. When we hear people are using the incorrect marker (even if, on a very slim chance, we've misheard), it's for a reason. Society does it consistently, and so I could see how even mishearing people can occur because of that consistency (you've come to expect it through experience, which can result on mishearing on a rare occasion).

[The Oopster]

I don't think transpeople are too sensitive when it comes to what people use as gender markers. I think bringing it down to oversensitivity opens us up to that being broadened to: "Well, that's not really transphobic, you're just too sensitive."

I think that the situation you described is one that doesn't occur frequently even if it might on a rare occasion, and so I don't think can constitute an oversensitivity, but the result of a reality. When we hear people are using the incorrect marker (even if, on a very slim chance, we've misheard), it's for a reason. Society does it consistently, and so I could see how even mishearing people can occur because of that consistency (you've come to expect it through experience, which can result on mishearing on a rare occasion).

i can see that but i know for me when I tend to mishear happens to be when I'm more sensitive to stuff!

Since then I have taken notice and I think there are times I over react. Likewise it's easy to justify overreaction beacuse of consistent experience. I don't think that is fair either to those that really are trying.

Like I said it really hit me off guard and they were adminent that I call her sir. I knew I hadn't but it took me awhile to figure out how they thought it. I didn't even perceive her as trans until they did that!

It actually wasn't the transperson, it was the people with her. I know for a fact it bothers my room mate more when people use the wrong pronouns then it does for me. I don't like it but it boils his skin.

[kannon]

I've had the "transitioning" discussion with my mom but she has difficulties acknowledging my masculinity. I can sense how uncomfortable she is when people call me sir. I've decided to give her a pass, even when women are hitting on me and she outs me and runs them off. *shaking head*

I have a straight woman that appears to be attracted to me. She does not know I'm trans. She came to my work the other day and asked for Kris the man. Luckily most of my co-workers are understanding and they use male pronouns. I think I'm going to have to talk with all of them. Even the ones that I fear will be ugly about it.

Anyway, I fear that it will scare her quite a bit when and if she discovers that I'm trans. Regardless, I've decided to ask her out as friends. I'm really a little nervous about it because 1.This is uncharted territory for me. 2. I don't pass all the time (I don't want to have that conversation upfront) I think it's important for her to get to know me as a person and a friend before I bust out initiate details about myself.

How have you guys dealt with this?

[Ebon]

i can see that but i know for me when I tend to mishear happens to be when I'm more sensitive to stuff!

Since then I have taken notice and I think there are times I over react. Likewise it's easy to justify overreaction beacuse of consistent experience. I don't think that is fair either to those that really are trying.

Like I said it really hit me off guard and they were adminent that I call her sir. I knew I hadn't but it took me awhile to figure out how they thought it. I didn't even perceive her as trans until they did that!

It actually wasn't the transperson, it was the people with her. I know for a fact it bothers my room mate more when people use the wrong pronouns then it does for me. I don't like it but it boils his skin.

My best friend is the same way. He gives people dirty looks if they use the wrong pronoun but I explained to him that it doesn't bother me anymore because I have no illusions that I am still in a female body and I know it's not easy for some people. Hell I've even used the wrong pronoun with friends of mine. If someone is trying then I appreciate that but if someone slips then I won't get mad over it.

[CockyDude]

Kannon, I have been living as a straight man for over 35 years. Other than this sight, there are less than a handful of people that know I am trans. There are plenty of women whom I dated that don't know. The "reveal" is a delicate situation. For me personally, I don't want people knowing. My family has been supportive of me since my teens, but I don't feel the need for people I won't be involved with long term to know. Because of the type of lifestyle I lead this is just safer for me, in my opinion. Ultimately, only you can make those decisions for yourself within your own comfort zones and mindsets.

[kannon]

Thanks Cocky. It really is up to each individual to decide for themselves. I guess I'll play it by ear and wait for the right moment to reveal that part of myself.

[J. Mason]

I agree with Cocky, you have to do what you think is right and comfortable to you.

I am upfront about being trans, I believe in honesty and if women run off, well as my friends say often, it's their loss.

[DapperButch]

I agree with Cocky, you have to do what you think is right and comfortable to you.

I am upfront about being trans, I believe in honesty and if women run off, well as my friends say often, it's their loss.

Hey, J. Mason. I am just thinking out loud here....but, I am wondering if it would be different for you if you were taking hormones and were read as male?

Isn't it kind of a different situation from those who are taking hormones? They are read as male and have to tell someone that they were assigned female at birth. You are seen as female and have to tell someone that inside you are male. The women that each of you are coming out to are coming from opposite places.

Make sense? No disrespect meant, I am just thinking outloud here and wondering your thoughts on this.

[J. Mason]

Hey, J. Mason. I am just thinking out loud here....but, I am wondering if it would be different for you if you were taking hormones and were read as male?

Isn't it kind of a different situation from those who are taking hormones? They are read as male and have to tell someone that they were assigned female at birth. You are seen as female and have to tell someone that inside you are male. The women that each of you are coming out to are coming from opposite places.

Make sense? No disrespect meant, I am just thinking outloud here and wondering your thoughts on this.

I am read as male to most people, to some I am not. It would prolly be a different situation but I can only speak for myself, when I do get everything done (surgeries and hormones, etc) I will still be open and honest about who I am, no holds barred.

The ladies that I have told about myself knew me when I ID'ed as butch, have been pretty accepting about it, maybe it is because they have taken it upon themselves to educate themselves about transmen and the things it encompasses.

Again I can only speak for myself.

[DapperButch]

I am read as male to most people, to some I am not. It would prolly be a different situation but I can only speak for myself, when I do get everything done (surgeries and hormones, etc) I will still be open and honest about who I am, no holds barred.

The ladies that I have told about myself knew me when I ID'ed as butch, have been pretty accepting about it, maybe it is because they have taken it upon themselves to educate themselves about transmen and the things it encompasses.

Again I can only speak for myself.

Got it. Thanks for your thoughts.

[kannon]

I agree with Cocky, you have to do what you think is right and comfortable to you.

I am upfront about being trans, I believe in honesty and if women run off, well as my friends say often, it's their loss.


I believe in honesty as well. I'm not sure what you mean by being upfront. Do you tell women the day you meet them?

For me, I will not share personal information with someone until I've developed a certain level of trust. I've met some women that proved to be very untrustworthy. I've learned to take my time and watch people's behavior rather than listen to their words. After a period of time I really get to know what that person is made of. I don't listen to what other people say about them. I base my opinions on my own observations and experiences with them.

I will share this aspect of myself after I've developed a bond with someone.

[Quintease]

I've always wondered about that! (the guys 'revealing' themselves bit)

My husband met all his women online where they were able to discuss his gender before meeting, so has no idea how other guys do it.

Not long before my current relationship began, a friend of mine had a similar experience with an MTF who wasn't honest prior to them falling into bed. At the time I was shocked, wondering why anyone would deceive another human being in such a way. Now I can kinda understand how hard it would be to say the words, 'I like you but..'

[J. Mason]

Got it. Thanks for your thoughts.

You are welcome!


I believe in honesty as well. I'm not sure what you mean by being upfront. Do you tell women the day you meet them?

For me, I will not share personal information with someone until I've developed a certain level of trust. I've met some women that proved to be very untrustworthy. I've learned to take my time and watch people's behavior rather than listen to their words. After a period of time I really get to know what that person is made of. I don't listen to what other people say about them. I base my opinions on my own observations and experiences with them.

I will share this aspect of myself after I've developed a bond with someone.

Yeah pretty much I tell em upfront so I do not have to deal with any issues that may arise from not telling them sooner. I have heard many horror stories from some transguys about how the ladies react if they are not told sooner.

[EnderD_503]

I guess it depends if you continue to maintain ties with the lgbtq community/if that's where you're looking for relationships/sex or not, or how you view your own status as a trans person. Personally, I don't see it as something that one would go out of their way to hide from someone unless you might be putting your safety at risk, as it's nothing to be ashamed of.

I can understand if someone is strictly living stealth as some choose to and is looking for relationships with straight women rather than queer women. That would make it more difficult, imo, since often straight women don't have the same experiences and are pretty tied to certain rigid worldviews. I guess it all depends on the person you're interested in.

[kannon]

I guess it depends if you continue to maintain ties with the lgbtq community/if that's where you're looking for relationships/sex or not, or how you view your own status as a trans person. Personally, I don't see it as something that one would go out of their way to hide from someone unless you might be putting your safety at risk, as it's nothing to be ashamed of.

I can understand if someone is strictly living stealth as some choose to and is looking for relationships with straight women rather than queer women. That would make it more difficult, imo, since often straight women don't have the same experiences and are pretty tied to certain rigid worldviews. I guess it all depends on the person you're interested in.

It really depends on a lot of different factors.

For my personal situation, I'm not going out of my way to hide and I'm not going out of my way to reveal it. I'm being me. I don't think I need to tell strangers that I'm trans just like I don't feel compelled to tell them that I'm of Scottish decent or any thing else that's not relevant to the moment. The "moment" being the early stages of a relationship. I choose to introduce acquaintances to my sense of humor and my laid back nature. I reveal more as I develop trust and feel more comfortable around them.

[Logicaly]

So I was recently in a situation at work, that I felt was some what relevant to the current topic at hand about revealing yourself to another person. Now I am in no way pursuing anything with this woman at my work, just to put that out there, so it makes it slightly different.

I had noticed a few times that this woman had made a reference to the men's room and my having the right parts to go in there (she wanted me to go in there for one reason or another), and it finally occurred to me, was she just referring to me in the way she felt I wanted, or did she really not know? So yesterday I worked up the courage to ask her, and well, I can be pretty direct at times, so I simply asked..."You do know that I am not a biological male right?" She looked very shocked to say the least, her and I had been working right next to each other for at least 3 months, and she had no idea that I was not born with male parts. She apologized of course, I let her know that was not necessary, and explained my situation to her. Sure, it was awkward, but for me personally, I feel it needed to be done. I didn't want her to get the wrong idea, especially since I do not use the men's room at work for a multitude of reasons and I did not want her to be uncomfortable if we ran into each other in the restroom.

So, while it does make me uncomfortable to have to out myself to people, I think there is also times where it might be necessary to do so. I don't think its deceiving to not tell someone right up front, or dishonest. I think depending upon the situation, especially if there is going to be any sort of intimacy involved though, that it is only right I tell the person before it gets to the point of us being intimate. That is just how I feel though, and what I feel is right for me. It of course could be very different for someone else and they may not feel it necessary at all to tell someone, and that is their choice as well.

[J. Mason]

Ok guys need opinions, should I start a thread of images of transguys, like the images of women thread on here? Who would yall want to see pics of and in any particular stages of transitioning?

Any suggestion and such are welcome.

[SelfMadeMan]

Ok guys need opinions, should I start a thread of images of transguys, like the images of women thread on here? Who would yall want to see pics of and in any particular stages of transitioning?

Any suggestion and such are welcome.

I don't see why not :) I think it'd be great to celebrate the beauty & diversity that exists in the trans community!

[J. Mason]

I agree with you as well, I just wanted to get some more opinions on the matter.

[EnderD_503]

It really depends on a lot of different factors.

For my personal situation, I'm not going out of my way to hide and I'm not going out of my way to reveal it. I'm being me. I don't think I need to tell strangers that I'm trans just like I don't feel compelled to tell them that I'm of Scottish decent or any thing else that's not relevant to the moment. The "moment" being the early stages of a relationship. I choose to introduce acquaintances to my sense of humor and my laid back nature. I reveal more as I develop trust and feel more comfortable around them.

I guess I'm putting this in the framework of dating members of the queer community. If I'm dating a femme, she's probably going to know quickly that I'm trans, not because I've announced it through a loud speaker or tattooed it on my forehead, but because queer dating usually comes with the assumption that the other person is also somehow queer. Especially if we met in a queer environment, which is most likely. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about it depending on whether you're living stealth or not. I would understand if a guy is living stealth and dating non-queer women why the subject wouldn't come up. But in a queer atmosphere where someone isn't stealth, then "queer" is still going to be an unspoken factor unlike in the hetero world where the assumption is that you're straight.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

[DapperButch]

I guess I'm putting this in the framework of dating members of the queer community. If I'm dating a femme, she's probably going to know quickly that I'm trans, not because I've announced it through a loud speaker or tattooed it on my forehead, but because queer dating usually comes with the assumption that the other person is also somehow queer. Especially if we met in a queer environment, which is most likely. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about it depending on whether you're living stealth or not. I would understand if a guy is living stealth and dating non-queer women why the subject wouldn't come up. But in a queer atmosphere where someone isn't stealth, then "queer" is still going to be an unspoken factor unlike in the hetero world where the assumption is that you're straight.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

kannon mentioned that the woman was straight. Wasn't that kind of the point of the question?? He was talking non-queer context. right? :confused:

[Midnight]

I have a question that I hope is not impolite but Im not sure. OK so firstly here are my assumptions. Please, please please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. Trans guys are born female but feel male/masculine inside and therefore change the outside to match their 'inner man'. 2. This can be achieved with or without surgery and/or with or without T. 3. This is a big assumption - when you identify as a trans male you are either a straight man or a gay man. Now to my question which I hope will make sense ..... Can body dysphoria be different to sexual/gender identity? I have been watching youtube and have been following some of the trans guys, and one guy's latest update (he has been on T and had top surgery) stated that he identifies as trans but also female and femme. I just can't seem to get my head around it and thought you guys might be able to help. If you want the link let me know and I'll PM it for you if that will help. Thanks guys.

[Ebon]

I have a question that I hope is not impolite but Im not sure. OK so firstly here are my assumptions. Please, please please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. Trans guys are born female but feel male/masculine inside and therefore change the outside to match their 'inner man'. 2. This can be achieved with or without surgery and/or with or without T. 3. This is a big assumption - when you identify as a trans male you are either a straight man or a gay man. Now to my question which I hope will make sense ..... Can body dysphoria be different to sexual/gender identity? I have been watching youtube and have been following some of the trans guys, and one guy's latest update (he has been on T and had top surgery) stated that he identifies as trans but also female and femme. I just can't seem to get my head around it and thought you guys might be able to help. If you want the link let me know and I'll PM it for you if that will help. Thanks guys.

I would like the link. Please and thank you! :)

[Ebon]

I have a question that I hope is not impolite but Im not sure. OK so firstly here are my assumptions. Please, please please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. Trans guys are born female but feel male/masculine inside and therefore change the outside to match their 'inner man'. 2. This can be achieved with or without surgery and/or with or without T. 3. This is a big assumption - when you identify as a trans male you are either a straight man or a gay man. Now to my question which I hope will make sense ..... Can body dysphoria be different to sexual/gender identity? I have been watching youtube and have been following some of the trans guys, and one guy's latest update (he has been on T and had top surgery) stated that he identifies as trans but also female and femme. I just can't seem to get my head around it and thought you guys might be able to help. If you want the link let me know and I'll PM it for you if that will help. Thanks guys.

Well the kid seems to have a very strong sense of self and that's awesome. I don't identify as femme or female so I can't wrap my mind around that either but maybe Jude is a case where body dysphoria can be different to sexual/gender. Anorexia is about body image and it crosses sexual and gender lines as well. Jude feels very human to me and appears to see a lot of things as constructs (I agree with Jude). Thanks for sharing the video.

[Midnight]

I agree he is very human and a very interesting individual. Can you explain what you mean by constructs please. Cheers

[Ebon]

I agree he is very human and a very interesting individual. Can you explain what you mean by constructs please. Cheers

Social constructs in my opinion are things that separate us like race, class, gender, sexuality etc...The world is setup in a way that tries to make us perceive certain people or groups as better than others when really we are all just human.

[Midnight]

Ah thankyou Ebon. I agree with you fully.

[EnderD_503]

I have a question that I hope is not impolite but Im not sure. OK so firstly here are my assumptions. Please, please please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. Trans guys are born female but feel male/masculine inside and therefore change the outside to match their 'inner man'.

Not necessarily. We're taught growing up that there are two sexes, male and female. What's meant by it is cismale and cisfemale, and we're often only taught about certain characteristics that define these. But going by those characteristics alone means we also leave out quite a few people who don't fit either one, physically. For example, intersex people and others with various genetic anomalies. Trans people, and transguys, are pretty diverse.

There have been studies done at a few European medical clinics and universities over the last few years (Spain and Holland come to mind) that have shown that pre-HRT transguys (or those who were a part of the study) possessed the same amount of white matter in almost all areas (except for one) of the brain as cissexed men, while having higher levels than cissexed females. The corticospinal tract was the only area where transguys in the study consistently demonstrated lower levels of white matter than cissexed men, but still had higher levels of white matter than cissexed females.

The brain's white matter is a part of the brain's physical makeup, and is also sexually dimorphic (males generally having more of it than females). In that respect trans people (or at least certain groups of trans people) lie outside of conventional definitions of physical sex defined by varying levels of sexual dimorphism. Especially when we consider that its' most likely the brain that gives people their sense of sex identity (which all people have, and most take for granted), rather than the mere fact that they were born with a certain set of genitals.

It would be better to say that transguys were assigned female at birth (which is different than saying that we're born female) and may decide to alter their appearance to match their brain's sex. Just like some intersexed people were assigned a socially approved sex when they were born, but discover later in life that they are intersex despite the appearance of their genitals (or those who doctor's "fix" to appear as either male or female, and discover this later in life).

3. This is a big assumption - when you identify as a trans male you are either a straight man or a gay man.

Or queer. Or bisexual. Or asexual. Or any other sexuality that exists out there. I know that a lot of trans resources spread the idea that "transguy attracted to women = straight" and "transguy attracted to men = gay" with little explanation of anyone who lies outside of that, but transmale sexuality is just as diverse as anyone else's. There are a few transguys on this forum who don't identify as straight even though they are attracted to women.

Now to my question which I hope will make sense ..... Can body dysphoria be different to sexual/gender identity? I have been watching youtube and have been following some of the trans guys, and one guy's latest update (he has been on T and had top surgery) stated that he identifies as trans but also female and femme. I just can't seem to get my head around it and thought you guys might be able to help. If you want the link let me know and I'll PM it for you if that will help. Thanks guys.

For sure, dysphoria can be completely detached from sexual and gender identity. There are butch women and other non-trans identified people who experience some form of body dysphoria that results in their getting top surgery, for example. There are people who were assigned female at birth who undergo HRT and surgery, but don't identify as either male or female. Or they may continue to identify as female.

I'd have to see the video to get a better sense of how the guy expresses his identity, but it's not totally strange that he sees himself that way. There are a few ideas about transguys floating around out there in society/the lgbtq community that don't really encompass the complete diversity of the transmale community.

There are some people who don't feel the need to change their bodies at all who still feel that their identity is a mix between male and female, and masculine and feminine. Just like a cissexed male can feel this way while still being happy with not altering his body, transguys can also feel the same way as far as being more comfortable in a "male" body, but not necessarily taking only a male identity. Changing your body to look a certain way is not always about taking on a socially accepted sex identity.

I can understand why some guys who feel this way find it difficult to express their identity to other people, since people associate certain sex characteristics as male or female, when to some they're simply physical characteristics outside of the labels of "male" and "female."

As far as the femme part, it's not entirely strange. I was just reading an article awhile ago by a transguy who identifies as a femme gay dude. It's not as uncommon as one might think for transguys to be "feminine."

Hopefully that response isn't too confusing and clarifies something for you :p

[EnderD_503]

kannon mentioned that the woman was straight. Wasn't that kind of the point of the question?? He was talking non-queer context. right? :confused:

Ah, my bad. I misread and didn't realise he had specified that she was straight. In that case, at least if it were me, I'd probably tell them once it became evident that there was mutual attraction and we're both actively doing something about it (going on a date, potentially fuck-buddying etc.) It's going to come up eventually anyway and no point investing energy on a straight person who might well reject you down the road when they find out.

[SelfMadeMan]

I don't feel anyone needs to out themselves to everyone they meet - or even to most people they meet. And I certainly don't think it needs to be done up front unless you just want to. It has been my experience that as soon as a friendship or potential relationship starts to be a very close one, it's something you might want to consider. I have found that even in cases where you want to remain 'stealth' - the potential for outing is always there. It's happened to me more than once. So, if a friendship of mine is a very close one, I feel it is best that I tell that person at some point, as I've developed deep friendships in the past, and chose not to tell, only to have them find out and the friendship be ruined (to the point of hate motivated threats at in one case). Regarding romantic relationships, I think as soon as it is clear there will be intimate contact of any kind, you should tell. I only speak from my own experiences and opinions - but I think to become intimate with another person and not tell is unfair to them.

[DapperButch]

Midnight, would you please post the link to the board? thanks.

[Linus]

I have a question that I hope is not impolite but Im not sure. OK so firstly here are my assumptions. Please, please please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. Trans guys are born female but feel male/masculine inside and therefore change the outside to match their 'inner man'. 2. This can be achieved with or without surgery and/or with or without T. 3. This is a big assumption - when you identify as a trans male you are either a straight man or a gay man. Now to my question which I hope will make sense ..... Can body dysphoria be different to sexual/gender identity? I have been watching youtube and have been following some of the trans guys, and one guy's latest update (he has been on T and had top surgery) stated that he identifies as trans but also female and femme. I just can't seem to get my head around it and thought you guys might be able to help. If you want the link let me know and I'll PM it for you if that will help. Thanks guys.

Midnight, would you please post the link to the board? thanks.

I think Midnight didn't post it out of respect for that individual.

[DapperButch]

I think Midnight didn't post it out of respect for that individual.

Oh, I missed that. Thank you Linus for pointing that out to me.

[Midnight]

I think Midnight didn't post it out of respect for that individual.

Indeed Linus :)
Ender thankyou so very much for your informative post. The brain is an amazing organ and Im amazed about how much diversity it creates in people. From your response I feel I can better understand where they are now coming from in respect to the you tube posting. You have given me much to think about! Thanks :)

[J. Mason]

I am dating a femme who ID's as lesbian and some friends and others have come to her voicing their opinions about the fact she is dating me. They ask why would a lesbian date a transman? Has anyone else encountered this and what did ya'll do about it?

[Thinker]

I am dating a femme who ID's as lesbian and some friends and others have come to her voicing their opinions about the fact she is dating me. They ask why would a lesbian date a transman? Has anyone else encountered this and what did ya'll do about it?

I didn't do anything about it; it was her situation to handle.

I realize that sounds a bit insensitive and I don't mean it to come across that way, but that really is the bottom line for me.

I'm assuming these people are *her* friends and acquaintances and that she would know better how to deal with them and their "concerns".

[SelfMadeMan]

I am dating a femme who ID's as lesbian and some friends and others have come to her voicing their opinions about the fact she is dating me. They ask why would a lesbian date a transman? Has anyone else encountered this and what did ya'll do about it?

Been there. I agree with Thinker that it is her situation to deal with since they're her friends... however, my .02 on that way of thinking.... we don't necessarily choose who to be attracted to or who we fall in love with. She's likely not dating you based on what you are as much as WHO you are...

[J. Mason]

Thanks for the response guys, sorry I was away with family and no computer access!

I am gonna let her handle this matter, she is a strong woman and I believe she can do it gracefully!

[MickMan]

Hey guys,

I have been with Stroheckers for about 5 years now. First with IM and starting in 2009 cream. The first few times I ordered from them, I got 3 months or 90 grams and following the directions of 1/4 tsp. After a few months I got a shipment in that was only one jar instead of two. I called and talked to Brett, who is now no longer there and he said they started shipping out only 2 months because everyone was complaining that there is too much meds. I thought it was fishy but just went along with it thinking they were ploying for more money.

With the new laws on meds in FL, I now have to see the doc every time I need a refill so I asked her to be sure to send in a script for 3 months, not the two they have been sending. When I got it in, it was the same amount and when I called Strocheckers, they said that they have not changed anything and that it was the same three month supply that I have been getting.

They gave me dates where the first 3 orders were 3 months apart and then it went to two, but there is no record of me calling in and now they are saying it is my fault. I am having issues with them and my doc now. I have a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon to be sure I am using the correct amount.

I am curious if anyone else is having issues with Strocheckers? Is anyone else on the cream and did the amount go down? Any input would be appreciated.

[The Oopster]

Hey guys,

I have been with Stroheckers for about 5 years now. First with IM and starting in 2009 cream. The first few times I ordered from them, I got 3 months or 90 grams and following the directions of 1/4 tsp. After a few months I got a shipment in that was only one jar instead of two. I called and talked to Brett, who is now no longer there and he said they started shipping out only 2 months because everyone was complaining that there is too much meds. I thought it was fishy but just went along with it thinking they were ploying for more money.

With the new laws on meds in FL, I now have to see the doc every time I need a refill so I asked her to be sure to send in a script for 3 months, not the two they have been sending. When I got it in, it was the same amount and when I called Strocheckers, they said that they have not changed anything and that it was the same three month supply that I have been getting.

They gave me dates where the first 3 orders were 3 months apart and then it went to two, but there is no record of me calling in and now they are saying it is my fault. I am having issues with them and my doc now. I have a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon to be sure I am using the correct amount.

I am curious if anyone else is having issues with Strocheckers? Is anyone else on the cream and did the amount go down? Any input would be appreciated.

Sorry I have never gotten my creme through them and have always had good experiences with them. However i do tend to use less of mine then prescribed so mine is always lasting way past the time to renew.

[MickMan]

Sorry I have never gotten my creme through them and have always had good experiences with them. However i do tend to use less of mine then prescribed so mine is always lasting way past the time to renew.

Thanks man. Yeah until now I ahve had great experiences. Not sure whats going on.

[Logicaly]

I don't use the cream, but I do get my prescription through them as well. I haven't been using them that long, and have only had to refill once in the time I have been on T and for the most part, they have been good. The only issue I have had with them is when it came time for my refill they only sent me needles for injecting, not for drawing the T into the syringe. They promptly sent me more, which was great, and I have not otherwise had any issues. For me, with my current dosing level mine easily lasts for 3 months.

I wouldn't mind going with a local company, but honestly so far, this has worked for me, and its not too expensive either.

[MickMan]

Got it taken care of. I went to my doc and talkd to her about it and she said that there was indeed an issue with the cream. She gave me another script to take to a local compounding pharm that she recommended and I got 4 months for a savings of about 50 bucks off of what I was paying for 2 months and they put it in pre-measured syringe type dispensers.

Super great service and better price and LOCAL!!

Atkinsons Pharm on Kingsley Ave, in case anyone is interested. Talk to Kelly. He is a super nice guy.

[Martina]

What do you think of the glitter bombing of Dan Savage?

[Linus]

What do you think of the glitter bombing of Dan Savage?

I thought it was a very sparkly moment.

That said, I don't know if he realizes that the very things that he doesn't like that happen against the GL community he may be very well doing to the trans community. Terms (at least for me) like "shemale" or "tranny" doesn't sit well with me. Granted it was 2003 in one piece in particular that he did this but I don't know if he's really acknowledged it or what he's done.

[EnderD_503]

What do you think of the glitter bombing of Dan Savage?

Honestly, the whole "glitter bombing" thing is not something I really understand. I'm not really sure where it came from or why it seems so popular now. In many respects I feel like it detracts from the seriousness of the forms of discrimination that people are speaking out against. On the other hand, it attracts more attention to it, where people would have otherwise ignored it.

From everything I've read, Dan Savage is an unapologetic transphobe, and I think it's important to point out why since he's a popular public figure. A lot of people espouse similar beliefs to his on trans folks, while still claiming to be "trans allies," just as he does. Whether glitter bombing him will help raise awareness or not on why certain behaviours and statements are transphobic remains to be seen.

I liked this take on it, though: http://www.bilerico.com/2011/11/dan_savage_gets_glitter_bombed_for_being_transphob .php

Yesterday evening Dan Savage visited the University of Oregon campus in Eugene as a part of his tour filming his show Savage U for MTV. While the details are not entirely clear, apparently a representative from the "Dan Savage Welcoming Committee" rushed the stage to glitter bomb the celebrity sex columnist along with the statement "Dan Savage is a transphobe!"

As they turned tail, they added, "Glitterbomb courtesy of the Dan Savage Welcoming Committee," and just before they got out the door, "He's a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist, too!" The operative then fled the scene.
--Statement by Dan Savage Welcoming Committee

Dan Savage has made it clear that he intends to be an ally to trans people, but he's certainly been a very inconsistent ally. Sometimes he apologizes for his transphobic actions, such as when he was criticized for saying that a Republican politician was trans as a way to insult him. Other times, he ridicules those who point out his transphobic actions, depicts them as over-sensitive, irrational, and so forth. He occasionally uses the power of his popularity to bring attention to important trans issues, but he refuses to listen to trans people when they tell him what he is doing is causing harm.

It's interesting to see the response to all this in a public glitter bombing. Savage has yet to release any statement on the matter, but it's likely to be pretty similar to his statement in an interview with David Badash last month.

"How do you disprove a charge like you're transphobic? I'm not afraid of trans people." Savage then goes into a mimicking voice, knowing not to say, "One of my friends is trans," but does say that he has a friend who is trans who comes to his house for Christmas. "We hang out all the time," Savage says. "I certainly have had a journey in the last 20 years--as have we all--on trans issues. When I started writing Savage Love 20 years ago, and you can yank quotes 15, 18 years ago and flat them up today and say, 'You know, that's transphobic,' I'd probably agree with you. 15 years ago I didn't know as much as I know now--nor did anybody."

The problem I see here is that an ally in any anti-oppression movement should not be focused on disproving the fact that they are influenced by prejudice. In doing so, he paints himself into an adversarial relationship with the trans activists who he tries to discredit in order to prove his worth. I would argue that it's probably impossible to avoid internalizing prejudicial messages. The best thing any ally can do is take responsibility for those influences and seek to be accountable for them. Yet Dan Savage is too busy dodging responsibility to actually internalize an understanding of what he is doing that is wrong.

Because while it was 8 years ago that he titled a column "Bad Tranny" where he admonished a trans woman for coming out, it was only two years ago that he used the term "shemale" to refer to trans women. Just one year ago, several weeks in succession, first when a caller discusses watching trans porn, he admits that he knows he shouldn't use either derogatory term, but declares that it's okay to do so when referencing porn and proceeds to joyfully sling around the word "tranny" ten times in about two minutes and tosses in "shemale" a few times for good measure. Then repeats his previous assertion that men who are attracted to trans women cannot be considered completely straight. A week later he verbally thrashes a trans person who got upset at being mispronouned. Then finally, he reassures a man who likes women with strap-ons that he is 100% straight as long as the cock that he's attracted to is attached to a woman - which apparently means he doesn't consider trans women to be women, or else he would have said the same thing to the guy who watches trans porn.

I have to wonder, with all that Dan Savage claims to have learned in the past 15 years, has he learned how to be less transphobic or has he only learned how to sound less transphobic while still putting out equally damaging statements?

I could go on, but his behavior has already been well documented by other bloggers, such as Masculine Toast, Bi Furious, Greta Christina, and FuckNoDanSavage. The bottom line is that when challenged on his various prejudicial influences, Dan Savage tells his critics to patiently wait for him while it gets better. This glitterbomb is one of many responses that demand, "Make it better."

[girl_dee]

Hi there,

For the transmen,

I've seen many of you for a long while now on the boards, through your journeys, and I've always wondered about something.

If you are transitioning or already transitioned, what affect did it have on your relationship if you were, or are in one? I recently watched a documentary that showed the femme deciding she could not stay with her partner because he was going to start T, and transition. She truly loved him, but felt she would lose her lesbian card and truly did not want to be with a man. In the end she did stay, but her fear was that the change would change her partner so much, she would not be able to stay.


Someone earlier asked if anyone has dealt with being questioned as to why a lesbian would date a transman. I was just wondering if this happens often.

[SelfMadeMan]

I am married to a queer identified woman... she knew I was transitioned when we met - I had been transitioned for years, so even though she didn't have to deal with the person she loved changing genders in the relationship, she did have to deal with how it affected her own identity. She still IDs as queer, she still thinks women are hot, she just happened to fall in love with a transman :)

As for why a lesbian would date a transman... I don't think we necessarily choose who to love, sometimes love chooses us.

[girl_dee]

I am married to a queer identified woman... she knew I was transitioned when we met - I had been transitioned for years, so even though she didn't have to deal with the person she loved changing genders, she did have to deal with how it affected her own identity. She still IDs as queer, she still thinks women are hot, she just happened to fall in love with a transman :)

That's quite a woman ya got there!

[msW8ing]

*snipped*
As for why a lesbian would date a transman... I don't think we necessarily choose who to love, sometimes love chooses us.

So very well said..everyone should be so blessed to find what you and your wife have.

[SelfMadeMan]

That's quite a woman ya got there!

Thank you so much for that.... she is incredible, she is one of the most - ok, the most, honest person I've ever knowm. She's genuine, she's generous, she's funny and she's my whole world :)

[The Oopster]

Blows the dust off here!

Hey thought I'd throw something out there!

In a week I'm going to meet up with an Aunt and Uncle and their son and his family.

As far as I know they have no clue of my trans status! Right now I'm just figuring to just show up and make no big deal of it! I don't foresee any issues with them or I would address it before hand. In this case it just seems easiest to handle it as it comes.

When I came out as gay 10 years ago they were very very excepting! Even my tough navy officer uncle!

I'm staying with the cousin but I have hotel reservations for that night that I can cancel up til 4 pm that night and will hang onto them til that day. That's also partly due to health issues my uncle and aunt have. Figure it's just easier to hold onto it and cancel it when i'm sure I don't need it!

any thoughts?

[Linus]

Blows the dust off here!

Hey thought I'd throw something out there!

In a week I'm going to meet up with an Aunt and Uncle and their son and his family.

As far as I know they have no clue of my trans status! Right now I'm just figuring to just show up and make no big deal of it! I don't foresee any issues with them or I would address it before hand. In this case it just seems easiest to handle it as it comes.

When I came out as gay 10 years ago they were very very excepting! Even my tough navy officer uncle!

I'm staying with the cousin but I have hotel reservations for that night that I can cancel up til 4 pm that night and will hang onto them til that day. That's also partly due to health issues my uncle and aunt have. Figure it's just easier to hold onto it and cancel it when i'm sure I don't need it!

any thoughts?

I'm always amazed at how well my family receives me. The biggest challenge with distant relatives (my aunts and uncles live in Canada so I only see them maybe once or twice a year) is that they forget pronouns. Personally I don't make it a big deal because I see them so rarely. They try and still love me for who I am (the more important fact, IMO).

I think you have a plan and if things don't go well, you have an out if need be. Just be positive and open to any questions. Do you think they know? (say from other family members)

[Nadeest]

It sounds like a good plan to me. I'd also have a way to get out of there quickly, just in case. Then again, I'm not particularly trusting, either.

[The Oopster]

I'm always amazed at how well my family receives me. The biggest challenge with distant relatives (my aunts and uncles live in Canada so I only see them maybe once or twice a year) is that they forget pronouns. Personally I don't make it a big deal because I see them so rarely. They try and still love me for who I am (the more important fact, IMO).

I think you have a plan and if things don't go well, you have an out if need be. Just be positive and open to any questions. Do you think they know? (say from other family members)

They possibly could but the only people the would hear it from would be my parents and I just don't see my parents having said anything because they are pretty private.

Certain people get passes on the pronouns and name game, that's really not an issue for me, I just really try to be sensitive to the other people involved and the best way to deal with it for them. Some of my other relatives I would definitely deal with it before hand but this side of the family is pretty laid back.

[Nadeest]

When I started my transition, I didnt expect my family and those that had known me for large numbers of years to automatically start calling me by my new name. Mind you, these people are few in number, but I do have to try to cut them some slack. It has got to be hard for them to adjust to referring to me by my new name, and thinking of me as a different gender then what they are used to.

[pajama]

So I hope this is the right place.

The Boy and I are watching Girls will be Boys. And we started discussing something that I have noticed before and wondered about.

While I understand that trans people feel/look/genitally are one gender, chromosomaly they are of another gender. So I would think chromosomes are what determines hair pattern. But obviously this is not so.....

How is it that FTMs end up with male hairlines, i.e. male pattern baldness? Is it the T that causes hair loss because of its steroid nature?

Thanks for any feedback.
A

[Liam]

How is it that FTMs end up with male hairlines, i.e. male pattern baldness? Is it the T that causes hair loss because of its steroid nature?

Thanks for any feedback.
A


A male hairline does not necessarily equate to male pattern baldness, and yes, usually its the T that makes the male hairline. A female hairline is generally rounder than a male hairline. As for male pattern baldness, the general response is that genetics determine that, just like it does for female pattern baldness.

[Linus]

So I've run into an odd situation at work. First a bit of background (for those unaware): I started my transition back in 2007-2008. I've been on T since 2008 and had top surgery last year. I have not had my I.D. gender changed yet because of the whole visa/green card stuff (the US gov't doesn't seem to care so that's fine). For my company I'm a technical trainer and sometimes we do what are known as "onsites" where a customer pays for a trainer to come and train their employees at their facility.

Recently, we had one customer who wants me (specifically) to come and teach. They happen to be an airline and they wanted to book the ticket on their airline. That, in itself, isn't an issue. However, the person organizing it (and likely to be a student) wanted the necessary info, which (as per TSA), means name and gender being given out. This made me go "no, not doing it" and told my company that. The airline company finally agreed to let me book the ticket myself (it then ends up with some random stranger rather than the person booking the course) and I still book the flight with them.

I'll say it again: I love the company I work for. They protected my privacy while still meeting the needs of the customer.

[Nadeest]

I'm so glad for you, Linus, that you have an employer that is looking out for their employees as well as their customers. I hope that I get a job with a company like that.

[Liam]

What have you guys done with all of your old photographs?

[Nadeest]

For good or bad, they are part of my life, so I have kept them. I seldom show them to other people, however. Generally, I might show them to close friends or to show someone that is considering transition just how much that a person can change, physically, over the course of transition.

[theoddz]

What have you guys done with all of your old photographs?

I have my old photos and I keep them. I don't think I show them to other people more or less than anyone else probably shows their old photos to others. I don't live my life, necessarily, in "stealth" mode, but that's because it's really not an issue, for the most part. I don't bring up the fact that I'm trans, as a general policy, and most people don't notice it and/or bring it up, in the course of everyday living. I guess I'm just not that uptight about it, for lack of a better word.

I am not hesitant to reveal or desirous of hiding my former (female-bodied) life. I am extremely proud of the fact that I served as a Woman Marine, and one of my pictures from that period in my life is displayed here in my gallery, as are several other pics from various times in my life, as well as a more recent picture. Like I said, it's just not that much of an issue. It is what it is. I think that only once....and it's been very recently, has anyone ever asked me what my previous (female) given name was, and I refused to answer. I figure it's none of anyone's business what that was and is totally irrelevent now.

I think everyone is different, for the most part. I lived most of my 51 years in my birth-assigned gender, and I'm not ashamed or wanting to hide that. It's in my past but is something I take with me.....a part of who I am. Sometimes it is the better part of me. It makes me a better man. Everyone is different, however, and I'm sure there are many other transfolk out there who feel differently than I do. That's what makes us unique, as human beings. :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Jaques]

I have my old photos and I keep them. I don't think I show them to other people more or less than anyone else probably shows their old photos to others. I don't live my life, necessarily, in "stealth" mode, but that's because it's really not an issue, for the most part. I don't bring up the fact that I'm trans, as a general policy, and most people don't notice it and/or bring it up, in the course of everyday living. I guess I'm just not that uptight about it, for lack of a better word.

I am not hesitant to reveal or desirous of hiding my former (female-bodied) life. I am extremely proud of the fact that I served as a Woman Marine, and one of my pictures from that period in my life is displayed here in my gallery, as are several other pics from various times in my life, as well as a more recent picture. Like I said, it's just not that much of an issue. It is what it is. I think that only once....and it's been very recently, has anyone ever asked me what my previous (female) given name was, and I refused to answer. I figure it's none of anyone's business what that was and is totally irrelevent now.

I think everyone is different, for the most part. I lived most of my 51 years in my birth-assigned gender, and I'm not ashamed or wanting to hide that. It's in my past but is something I take with me.....a part of who I am. Sometimes it is the better part of me. It makes me a better man. Everyone is different, however, and I'm sure there are many other transfolk out there who feel differently than I do. That's what makes us unique, as human beings. :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

i feel pretty much the same, i dont live stealth either, but if anyone wants to know i have no problem with that, im older than you, came out in the late 90's and transitioned 6 yrs ago - is it an age thing - i.e. as we get older and have lived most of our life in our birth gender,seen and been through a lot in life - it can seem less important than maybe to a younger person?

[Joe Mario]

Interesting topic, fellahs. My stealth/ out status is tricky due to my occupation. As a professional working in an office with
(non-pro) office staff involving servicing the (general) public, I don't want my status known there primarily for the (obvious) safety reasons. The idea doesn't make me feel safe and it's, as Theo said; 'none of anyone's business'.


This could change if the public could see the value in our unique perspective. A cis-gendered bio-male could never, ever have our insight or perspective. Ever. How we see ourselves first comes from us as a community, then it projects outward to the mainstream public. Thankfully there are single individuals out there helping us along. We still have a long way to go, but I am full of hope.


I was 46 when I decided to do this. My adult life has been in the LGBTQ social culture where I am out. Having achieved most things I am proud of before transitioning, I don't wish at all to 'erase' that part of my life. In fact, achieving them in a non-transitioned, non-cisgendered state makes me feel like a super dude among men, so I am definitely keeping the photos!

Am still balancing out how I feel completely about the whole stealth/ out issue. Permissions with my family's friends can be tricky, but am out with LGBTQ Communities. People come in all sorts and rub us all differently and my status is MY very personal business. Ultimately, I feel like the default for disclosure should be my choice.

[Liam]

i feel pretty much the same, i dont live stealth either, but if anyone wants to know i have no problem with that, im older than you, came out in the late 90's and transitioned 6 yrs ago - is it an age thing - i.e. as we get older and have lived most of our life in our birth gender,seen and been through a lot in life - it can seem less important than maybe to a younger person?


I'm not sure that it is an age thing, since I have photographs older than Theo.

[The Oopster]

They possibly could but the only people the would hear it from would be my parents and I just don't see my parents having said anything because they are pretty private.

Certain people get passes on the pronouns and name game, that's really not an issue for me, I just really try to be sensitive to the other people involved and the best way to deal with it for them. Some of my other relatives I would definitely deal with it before hand but this side of the family is pretty laid back.

so I saw my aunt, uncle and cousin recently and the whole situation was sort of cute.

The night before i went over to see them I was talking to my aunt and I started to say well there is something you need to know ... She said "Hun it's okay, your dad sent us an email. Barry(her son) keeps telling me to watch my pronouns.

She did her best ... it was funny cause my uncle who just had some issues where his thinking process was impaired didn't miss a single pronoun and I could tell that he was proud of that fact!

When I was leaving my cousins ... my cousin paused ... stared at me and said "damn you look like your dad!"

i knew they'd be good and it's nice to have some of the family that now knows. Don't know what will ever happen with my moms side but i'll cross that bridge if it ever comes!

[The Oopster]

What have you guys done with all of your old photographs?

I'm actually in a process of taking all my old photographs some that I am in and some that I am not in and scanning them into my computer.

I hope to make some themed murals with them to display in my hallway.

I'm not sure what I am going to do with the ones that i am in yet. I'm going to leave those for last! If nothing else I will probably make something then decide whether or not to display. I figure when i get to that point I will know what is right for me. At this moment it would be weird, but by the time I get there and maybe in the manner that I display them it might be okay.

I do have some albums and my yearbook out but really not anywhere that someone is going to grab them and look at them.

Some of my not displaying them has to do with others reactions but the other part has to do with me. It's just weird to see them. It's a different person that I am so disconnected from and even though it's a part of my past it's weird to look at this person that existed yet didn't exist.

[Nadeest]

I'm glad that things went well with your family. :)

[pajama]

Does the shaving cream make more of a difference than the razor? Okay, so I've always used the cheap stripped can shaving cream. But I use expensive disposable 5-blade razors and still don't get the shave I would like. Do those shaving creams that blah blah about smoother shave, lifts hair, blah blah really help?

Thanks gentlemen.
A

[Thinker]

Does the shaving cream make more of a difference than the razor? Okay, so I've always used the cheap stripped can shaving cream. But I use expensive disposable 5-blade razors and still don't get the shave I would like. Do those shaving creams that blah blah about smoother shave, lifts hair, blah blah really help?

Thanks gentlemen.
A

I don't know about that, pajara; but I do know that washing with hot water (or do the hot towel thing like they do in salons/barbershops) opens the pores and softens the hair for a closer shave.

[Nadeest]

The shaving creams can certainly help, however, putting a hot damp washcloth on one's face, immediately before shaving really helps a lot. To my mind, the shaving creams help protect the face, and give you a smoother shave by providing lubrication for the razor's movement across your face.

For many years before I transitioned, I could not use shaving creams due to problems with my body. Just putting a hot wet washcloth over my face for a few minutes, prior to shaving, did the trick for me, in giving me a close shave.

[pajama]

Thank y'all. Well that was easy. I'll give it a try. :D

[Jesse]

What they said, and a sharp blade! :)

[justkim]

Exfoliate, Exfoliate, and Exfoliate again. It helps to remove the dead/dry skin that builds up. I use a puff thingy and Aveeno has a great exfoliating cleansers. This can be used on whatever you are shaving. :blush:
I use my Aveeno every other day and it makes for soft skin and a closer shave. Also not letting your razor sit in the shower and stay wet keeps the edge longer. Good luck!



Does the shaving cream make more of a difference than the razor? Okay, so I've always used the cheap stripped can shaving cream. But I use expensive disposable 5-blade razors and still don't get the shave I would like. Do those shaving creams that blah blah about smoother shave, lifts hair, blah blah really help?

Thanks gentlemen.
A

[Liam]

Does the shaving cream make more of a difference than the razor? Okay, so I've always used the cheap stripped can shaving cream. But I use expensive disposable 5-blade razors and still don't get the shave I would like. Do those shaving creams that blah blah about smoother shave, lifts hair, blah blah really help?

Thanks gentlemen.
A

I have found the best shaving "cream" to be the old fashioned round of soap that sits in the bottom of a mug and requires a brush to apply. As for razors, I have discovered that a straight edge razor, yet another old fashioned item, gives me the closest shave yet. The ritual of sharpening with a stone, and then using the leather strop to tweak the edge, do not lend themselves to hurried mornings, but the results are most satisfying.

[pajama]

I have found the best shaving "cream" to be the old fashioned round of soap that sits in the bottom of a mug and requires a brush to apply. As for razors, I have discovered that a straight edge razor, yet another old fashioned item, gives me the closest shave yet. The ritual of sharpening with a stone, and then using the leather strop to tweak the edge, do not lend themselves to hurried mornings, but the results are most satisfying.

I could definetly do the mug/soap. But for the life of me I have never been able to sharpen a darn thing on anything. If I could keep it sharp, I would learn how to use a straight razor. I think their sexy as hell. Will you be at Reunion? Maybe you could offer a seminar. Admission, a cigar? :)

Thank you!
A

[Corkey]

I use shave oil (almond) with a hot towel first, after a shower, with Casswell-Massey almond shave soap with a badger bristle brush. Followed by a cooling after shave and Neutrogenia for men moisturizer with spf. I use Gillette Quatro razor.


A good close shave takes time.

[Linus]

I've been contemplating bottom surgery. At the very least a hysto and metoidioplasty but was curious what others have considered or have had done. PMs welcomed if that is more comfortable for you.

What I'm curious/concerned about are:



costs (this is why I've ruled out phalloplasty)
recovery time (metoi likely has the fastest recovery)
ability to pee standing up without additional device.
at what age did you do this

[Sun]

Hey Everyone

I recently reconnected with my Mom again after 16 years of her
cutting me off. Mom is very conservative Jehovahs Witness.

My life choices were just unceptable to her. While my siblings, childhood friends, friends ofbthe family and High School friends all had no trouble with my gender evolution, my Mom is in denial and does not want to discuss this.

I am very out and visible as a volunteer with 2 Narional groups. One is religious the other political. It would be impossible to avoid my male identity if she wanted to. When my sister refers to me in male pronouns or my nephews call me Uncle, Mom gets upset.

Everyone who saw me grow up gets me and can see a natural evolution.

I find myself wondering how to engage with my Mother in an authentic way.

Has anyone been through anything similar?

Thank you.

[Corkey]

Hey Everyone

I recently reconnected with my Mom again after 16 years of her
cutting me off. Mom is very conservative Jehovahs Witness.

My life choices were just unceptable to her. While my siblings, childhood friends, friends ofbthe family and High School friends all had no trouble with my gender evolution, my Mom is in denial and does not want to discuss this.

I am very out and visible as a volunteer with 2 Narional groups. One is religious the other political. It would be impossible to avoid my male identity if she wanted to. When my sister refers to me in male pronouns or my nephews call me Uncle, Mom gets upset.

Everyone who saw me grow up gets me and can see a natural evolution.

I find myself wondering how to engage with my Mother in an authentic way.

Has anyone been through anything similar?

Thank you.

I'm sorry Sun, no mine were accepting. I have no pearls of wisdom but patience.

[Jaques]

Hey Everyone

I recently reconnected with my Mom again after 16 years of her
cutting me off. Mom is very conservative Jehovahs Witness.

My life choices were just unceptable to her. While my siblings, childhood friends, friends ofbthe family and High School friends all had no trouble with my gender evolution, my Mom is in denial and does not want to discuss this.

I am very out and visible as a volunteer with 2 Narional groups. One is religious the other political. It would be impossible to avoid my male identity if she wanted to. When my sister refers to me in male pronouns or my nephews call me Uncle, Mom gets upset.

Everyone who saw me grow up gets me and can see a natural evolution.

I find myself wondering how to engage with my Mother in an authentic way.

Has anyone been through anything similar?

Thank you.

...........my parents had been "promote to Glory" as they say in the salvation army when they die, so i never had this problem, however i did have grown children, 2 sons and it wasnt easy and took a lot of time/patience. as you rightly quote on the bottom of your posts "choose love" - your mum loves you and wants the best for her child - however old you are, a parent still sees their offspring as their child and is protective of him/her. I feel the best way through this type of situation is to understand that whilst you are undoubtedly eager for acceptance, your mum has beliefs and feelings which dont allow her, at this moment in time, to see it from your view. I have found that patience, time and love helps enormously. Its not easy I know and your mum may never be able to accept who you are, which doesnt mean she doesnt love you - your own acceptance of her feelings would help. Unfortunately, we cant always have it the way we would wish but understanding that can help you deal with your own feelings.............

[Greyson]

Hey Everyone

I recently reconnected with my Mom again after 16 years of her
cutting me off. Mom is very conservative Jehovahs Witness.

I find myself wondering how to engage with my Mother in an authentic way.

Has anyone been through anything similar?

Thank you.

Sun, I feel for you. The family stuff, gender and sexual orientation status may put many dynamics into play. My family (parents and siblings) are a mixed bag of liberals to ordained clergy conservatives.

To be authenic or to strive to be authenic does not rquire buy in from others. It is not easy to bare rejection, and disrespect from our family, it can hurt. However, you can continue to be authenic and live your life according to your values and choices.

It is not easy. Please do not think I am suggesting that to you. I myself do not have much contact with my brothers because of their response to my transistion. I believe they have always personalized my queerness expressed primarily in the masculine form, as some sort of personal threat to their own sense of masculinity or what it means to be a man. (I digress.)

If you would like to talk about your situation with me, one to one, pm me.

[The Oopster]

I don't know if this relates to you Sun or would help, but with my family I addressed the issue on how it effects them. I've made no claim that they need to accept me this way or that way but if they are going to be around me there are things they need to be aware of. That others do see me as a man and them calling me she will get them weird looks, them showing pictures of me and saying may daughter will get them weird looks ... etc. I suggested they at least start with gender neutral things. Like calling me lynd, calling me their child.

My brother has never given me a chance. He will only be around me if I'm the way he expects me to be. I've never said he had to do anything, call me he, koop or anything but he has chosen to not have me in his life the way I am.

With My parents I have taken baby steps. Until this winter I hadn't been home for about 4 or 5 years. They travel a lot and we would meet up places. I let them get to see me in areas where they didn't have to be concerned about others reactions. They've grown to accept me the way I am. Mom still isn't great with the pronouns but has gotten really good and calling me by a shortened version of my given name. Dad has called me son.

For me by not demanding anything from them I feel I've gotten more then I could imagine.

[Linus]

So a question I figured I'd ask but I know would be a small, limited audience. I'm currently attempting to get a green card via work. Unfortunately, because of my degrees and the strict requirements for that I ended up in what's known as the EB-3 category, which is general skilled professionals. Because of this, I'm looking at somewhere between 5-7 years before I might (and it's a huge might given some recent legislation going on in Congress/Senate right now) get a green card.

K and I have been talking about marriage for a few years now and I have even proposed to her. I still have to get her ring redone (in silver since the one I got her turned her finger green ?!). That said, I've contemplated getting my sex identifier changed on my ID and marrying her to see about getting the green card via marriage.

The questions I have is:

1. Has anyone done this?

2. For the medical interview portion, do you have to go to a doctor that is selected by USCIS or can you go to your general practitioner?

3. Does USCIS consider GID to be a "Physical or mental disorders with
harmful behavior" that would deny entry (I'm assuming no since I've been here for 5 years but this seems a different group from those that issue work visas).

Any input from those who have dealt with this kind of process (or similar if it was to another country) would be greatly appreciated.

[Tony]

So a question I figured I'd ask but I know would be a small, limited audience. I'm currently attempting to get a green card via work. Unfortunately, because of my degrees and the strict requirements for that I ended up in what's known as the EB-3 category, which is general skilled professionals. Because of this, I'm looking at somewhere between 5-7 years before I might (and it's a huge might given some recent legislation going on in Congress/Senate right now) get a green card.

K and I have been talking about marriage for a few years now and I have even proposed to her. I still have to get her ring redone (in silver since the one I got her turned her finger green ?!). That said, I've contemplated getting my sex identifier changed on my ID and marrying her to see about getting the green card via marriage.

The questions I have is:

1. Has anyone done this?

2. For the medical interview portion, do you have to go to a doctor that is selected by USCIS or can you go to your general practitioner?

3. Does USCIS consider GID to be a "Physical or mental disorders with
harmful behavior" that would deny entry (I'm assuming no since I've been here for 5 years but this seems a different group from those that issue work visas).

Any input from those who have dealt with this kind of process (or similar if it was to another country) would be greatly appreciated.

I don't know if any of this will help or not. Just my experience.
Anyway, I've been legally married twice. The only ID I needed was drivers license, which got changed under very lucky (for me) circumstances. I went to the DMV, said I lost (misplaced)y drivers license, which I had. After giving them my social security number they filled in the blanks. Male it was. Granted, this was an awful lot of years ago.
There are also some states that will change your sex w/o surgery if you have documentation that shows you've lived as your "chosen" gender for x amount of years.

[Corkey]

Hey Linus, being that your a transplanted Canadian, I have no I idea what the hoops your going to have to jump through. The only thing I can suggest is to call or write to ICE to know what they are accepting now.

[ahk]

I have been on T for about 4 months now--

My question is -- when did you start to shave?

[Linus]

I have been on T for about 4 months now--

My question is -- when did you start to shave?

I grew a beard but could have easily started shaving within a month. I'm hairy like that. A lot of the determination as to when you'll start is a mixture of genes, how high of a dosage and how often the dosage. There's no specific set date (e.g., you start T on Nov 1 doesn't mean that by Nov 15 you'll have a beard). It's powerful but there are still other factors at play.

[Greyson]

I grew a beard but could have easily started shaving within a month. I'm hairy like that. A lot of the determination as to when you'll start is a mixture of genes, how high of a dosage and how often the dosage. There's no specific set date (e.g., you start T on Nov 1 doesn't mean that by Nov 15 you'll have a beard). It's powerful but there are still other factors at play.

I have been on T for four years and three months now. Not until late Spring did I start to need to shave daily. Most of the growth is on my neck directly under my chin and side burn area. I still could not grow a mustache even if I wanted one.

Personally for me, initially I was more focused with the physical changes and now, much more with the layers of my "transition."

Best wishes for you on your journey.

[theoddz]

I have been on T for about 4 months now--

My question is -- when did you start to shave?

Okay, I have an endocrine disorder that I was diagnosed with in my late teens (19) while on active duty in the Marine Corps. Because of that, and probably genetics from hairy blood ancestry, I was able to grow facial hair long, long looooooooong before I even thought about transitioning. That being said:

I've been on T for almost 6 years now, but I didn't start with injectable T at first, and there was a big difference in the speed and amount of change that I experienced when I first started with the T gel (Testim) and sub dermal pellets (Testopel). For the first 6 or 8 months, I was on the pellets and gel, but didn't see any appreciable change. I got to the point where I was not trusting the doctor who was implanting these pellets and it got really, really expensive having to travel over to Los Angeles every 3-4 months from where I live, here in Las Vegas, to get more pellets re-implanted.

After I started injectable T, the changes started coming about pretty quickly, like within the first year. The first thing I noticed was how my hairline receded. The second thing that I saw happening was how the rest of my body, like my chest, back, arms, shoulders, legs and crotch started sprouting hair. I was adopted when I was 3 months old and I know very little about my birth parents, other than the non-identifiable information that the state adoption agency shared with me when I was 18 years old. I have no idea if there's baldness in the male segment of either of my birth parents or not, so I've had to just proceed with this part of transition with a "wait and see" attitude. So, it's been a bit of a surprise for me to watch the hair line just slowly creep back and the back hairs to start sprouting. I guess it's "like a box of chocolates, because I don't know what I'm going to get".

So here I am, nearly 6 years on T this coming January. I have been wearing a full beard for the past year or so and only shaving my neck below my beard line. It gets prickly and uncomfy if I don't and I have to shave that every day. A couple of weeks ago, my boss sent out an email saying that our entire staff had to get fit tested for the N-95 respirator protective mask. This is a filtered mask that health care personnel must wear to protect ourselves from airborne pathogens such as Tuberculosis bacteria and other bad stuff. The email said that "All men must be clean shaven" because facial hair impaired the functionality of the mask. So, I had to shave my beard off. I did leave my long sideburns and my mustache, however, because I'm a "rebel" like that!! Anyway, after getting fit tested, I immediately went back to growing my beard back. Here it is, about 3 weeks from my last shave and my beard is now totally and completely regrown. Yay me!!!! :clap:

Good luck on growing your facial hair, if you so desire to. I've met quite a few ladies, my gf included, who really find a man with a full beard to be most attractive!! :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[The Oopster]

I have been on T for about 4 months now--

My question is -- when did you start to shave?

I started on the creme back in 2005 ... I had no heavy duty facial hair while on it however my peach fuzz did grow and I know I had to periodically shave to keep it under control

I started injectible T I think 4 years ago. Just this past year have gotten where I almost need to shave on a daily basis. Sometimes I can skip a day depending on when I shave. However the more I shave the more I have to shave.

I still don't think I could grow a full anything, but I'm finally getting where my sideburns have grown out. YAY that's the main thing i wanted. The rest I have been able to tolerate that much. Like Greyson I mainly get this hairy scarf and I can't stand the feel or look of it so off it goes. Occasionally i start to try other things but just don't have the tolerance.

My next step is to increase the length of my sideburns!

I come from a fairly nonhairy body hair family. We all have a full head of hair but not much going on else where! I don't have a single chest hair which I am happy with but that's how hairless my family is!

[ahk]

I grew a beard but could have easily started shaving within a month. I'm hairy like that. A lot of the determination as to when you'll start is a mixture of genes, how high of a dosage and how often the dosage. There's no specific set date (e.g., you start T on Nov 1 doesn't mean that by Nov 15 you'll have a beard). It's powerful but there are still other factors at play.

Linus: Hey thanks for answering so quickly-- I come from a non hairy family so I doubt I will be in your same boat. I started off with a lower dosage and just recently up'd the dosage.

Maybe I should of asked: Did you shave Pre-T? Peach fuzz? If you start to shave peach fuzz, is it true that more hair will grow? and more zits will accumulate? Oy.

I have been on T for four years and three months now. Not until late Spring did I start to need to shave daily. Most of the growth is on my neck directly under my chin and side burn area. I still could not grow a mustache even if I wanted one.

Personally for me, initially I was more focused with the physical changes and now, much more with the layers of my "transition."

Best wishes for you on your journey.

Thanks Greyson, so far this journey has been awesome, not saying there hasn't been any downs, but so far, I have been enjoying.



Okay, I have an endocrine disorder that I was diagnosed with in my late teens (19) while on active duty in the Marine Corps. Because of that, and probably genetics from hairy blood ancestry, I was able to grow facial hair long, long looooooooong before I even thought about transitioning. That being said:

I've been on T for almost 6 years now, but I didn't start with injectable T at first, and there was a big difference in the speed and amount of change that I experienced when I first started with the T gel (Testim) and sub dermal pellets (Testopel). For the first 6 or 8 months, I was on the pellets and gel, but didn't see any appreciable change. I got to the point where I was not trusting the doctor who was implanting these pellets and it got really, really expensive having to travel over to Los Angeles every 3-4 months from where I live, here in Las Vegas, to get more pellets re-implanted.

After I started injectable T, the changes started coming about pretty quickly, like within the first year. The first thing I noticed was how my hairline receded. The second thing that I saw happening was how the rest of my body, like my chest, back, arms, shoulders, legs and crotch started sprouting hair. I was adopted when I was 3 months old and I know very little about my birth parents, other than the non-identifiable information that the state adoption agency shared with me when I was 18 years old. I have no idea if there's baldness in the male segment of either of my birth parents or not, so I've had to just proceed with this part of transition with a "wait and see" attitude. So, it's been a bit of a surprise for me to watch the hair line just slowly creep back and the back hairs to start sprouting. I guess it's "like a box of chocolates, because I don't know what I'm going to get".

So here I am, nearly 6 years on T this coming January. I have been wearing a full beard for the past year or so and only shaving my neck below my beard line. It gets prickly and uncomfy if I don't and I have to shave that every day. A couple of weeks ago, my boss sent out an email saying that our entire staff had to get fit tested for the N-95 respirator protective mask. This is a filtered mask that health care personnel must wear to protect ourselves from airborne pathogens such as Tuberculosis bacteria and other bad stuff. The email said that "All men must be clean shaven" because facial hair impaired the functionality of the mask. So, I had to shave my beard off. I did leave my long sideburns and my mustache, however, because I'm a "rebel" like that!! Anyway, after getting fit tested, I immediately went back to growing my beard back. Here it is, about 3 weeks from my last shave and my beard is now totally and completely regrown. Yay me!!!! :clap:

Good luck on growing your facial hair, if you so desire to. I've met quite a few ladies, my gf included, who really find a man with a full beard to be most attractive!! :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Theo-- What kind of work do you do? I was recently fitted for the N-95 mask too. lol.

I enjoyed your story, thank you.

I started on the creme back in 2005 ... I had no heavy duty facial hair while on it however my peach fuzz did grow and I know I had to periodically shave to keep it under control

I started injectible T I think 4 years ago. Just this past year have gotten where I almost need to shave on a daily basis. Sometimes I can skip a day depending on when I shave. However the more I shave the more I have to shave.

I still don't think I could grow a full anything, but I'm finally getting where my sideburns have grown out. YAY that's the main thing i wanted. The rest I have been able to tolerate that much. Like Greyson I mainly get this hairy scarf and I can't stand the feel or look of it so off it goes. Occasionally i start to try other things but just don't have the tolerance.

My next step is to increase the length of my sideburns!

I come from a fairly nonhairy body hair family. We all have a full head of hair but not much going on else where! I don't have a single chest hair which I am happy with but that's how hairless my family is!

I, too, have started off with compounding gel, first started off with a lower dosage (200mg) and now am at (420mg) monthly, and have seen more changes with that as of lately. My peach fuzz is getting thicker/fuzzier. I also don't come from a back ground of fuzzy people, but I hear from so many other T guys in my community that I should start shaving, but just have this issue about getting acne or starting to soon.


To everyone-- thank you again for replying and sharing your stories. I really appreciate it.

a. :mohawk:

[Logicaly]

I've been on T for something like two years now I think perhaps and I am just now starting to shave. I get some dark hairs here and there under my chin, but the rest is still kinda fuzzy, and there is some very light sideburns growing in slowly. Its funny, the one thing I want the most from this is more facial hair, because I also feel the lack of it makes people second guess my gender in public because I have such a baby face unfortunately.

I have noticed, and it could just be the timing of it all, is that the more I shave, the more darker hairs start coming in on my chin, so who knows.

I have heard of some guys taking DHT I believe it was to directly increase the ability to grow facial hair, and overall hair in general. But I haven't had a chance to look more into that yet.

[Nadeest]

Just remember that the effects of HRT differ with each person, so don't expect miracles. I know of a transwoman that started HRT 2 years after i did, and she has much bigger breasts then I do. Of course, she started HRT when she was a lot younger then I did, too. Sometimes, it is just the way that the dice falls, I guess.

[DanieClarke]

I stopped HRT about 9 yrs ago..

[GraffitiBoi]

Hi all,

I started my transition in 2000 and started on T in 2003. It only took a few months for me to need to shave - surprising since I am Irish and not very hairy at all. I went off of T in 2010 due to some medical issues, but will be going back on again soon. I still have to shave every day, although I let it go until work complains. We aren't allowed to have facial hair other than a small, neatly trimmed, mustache. The one place I can't seem to grow much hair! Go figure.

I had top surgery in 2008 and a hysto in 2010. I have no plans for any other surgeries at this time. I was able to get my insurance to cover ALL costs associated with my transistion.

For the record - I am very open abotut anything and everything so feel free to ask me anything. Pvt message me if you have a question you aren't comfortable asking on here.

Also - I'm in the Twin Cities, MN and am looking to make some local friends if anyone else is around here and open to it.

[ahk]

How do you know if your T is turning into Estrogen -- What would some indications be ?

[GraffitiBoi]

How do you know if your T is turning into Estrogen -- What would some indications be ?

I'd say discuss it with your endo... but mood swings can happen... your period can come back (if you haven't had a hysto)... your voice may go back up a little... I had a link to one of my FTM support sites a while back that listed what you are looking for. I'll see if I can find it.

[ahk]

I'd say discuss it with your endo... but mood swings can happen... your period can come back (if you haven't had a hysto)... your voice may go back up a little... I had a link to one of my FTM support sites a while back that listed what you are looking for. I'll see if I can find it.

Cool, thanks--

[Hominid]

How do you know if your T is turning into Estrogen -- What would some indications be ?

I wouldn't worry too much - it takes a HUGE amount for that to happen - the amount that body builders use. The primary sign is breast formation and men and testicular shrinkage. That said, you would either have to have liver disease so you can't metabolize it, or be taking huge, non-prescribed doses.

[PurpleQuestions84]

Why do most transmen have an issue dating tall women ?
im 5'9 and half and i get no love from the bros:(

[Linus]

Why do most transmen have an issue dating tall women ?
im 5'9 and half and i get no love from the bros:(

My g/f is 5'9" and I'm 5'1". Just a matter of finding one who appreciates a taller, leggier woman.

[Greyson]

Why do most transmen have an issue dating tall women ?
im 5'9 and half and i get no love from the bros:(

I noticed the height thing even before I transitioned. Some butches have the same "dilema." For me, the more comfortable I became with myself, the less I was threatened by a woman's height. I love to see a woman in heels and if I wanted to date women I was attracted to, I needed to get over it.

My girlfriend is taller then me by a couple of inches.

[PurpleQuestions84]

Tall + femme = Not good ;)

I noticed the height thing even before I transitioned. Some butches have the same "dilema." For me, the more comfortable I became with myself, the less I was threatened by a woman's height. I love to see a woman in heels and if I wanted to date women I was attracted to, I needed to get over it.

My girlfriend is taller then me by a couple of inches.

[Darbonaire]

Tall + femme = Not good ;)

<~ 5'10" tall here so....why is that not good for you??

[Linus]

Here's some food for thought: http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2012/10/31/no-lgbt-survivors-of-the-zombies-apocalypse/

Oddly enough I was thinking about this when I watched this week's episode: what would I do if there was a zombie apocalypse (or similar)? Would I have to break into every pharmacy, steal all the T I can and lug it around, protecting it (and necessary needles)? A hysto would allow for a stretched out usage and certainly natural methods could help but..

[PurpleQuestions84]

Because most MTF/ Butch want to be the taller person in the relationship ...

<~ 5'10" tall here so....why is that not good for you??

[Ginger]

Because most MTF/ Butch want to be the taller person in the relationship ...


Well, I'm sure you're saying this from experience—but I find it hard to accept as a generalization.

If it's true, then I'd think that was sad, that such a sexist value was being adopted and applied to pollute a new paradigm—because it denigrates the beauty of tall femmes. My sisters.