Men with boobs.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

On this note: Paris Hilton was the Grand Marshal of the WeHo Pride Parade. Do we expect her to espouse our politics? God. I. Hope. Not.

[Jack]

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

I wonder , would THEY respond. Would THEY clarify ?

Would they defend, would they respond , Would they learn something ?

Would they even have to ?

Would it help ?

I would love it if they strolled in right now, sat on the couch with us all and took this to the next stage.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jack

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Bit

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

Yes, it would be interesting and we would give them a warm and friendly welcome !

[SuperFemme]

I'm still struggling to understand how the comment values men over women.

Is it the order? That she said "short man" before "boobs"? Because I don't think short men in general are a hot commodity. Look at Tom Cruise and how he wears shoe lifts and is all picky about his height being depicted.

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm still struggling to understand how the comment values men over women.

Is it the order? That she said "short man" before "boobs"? Because I don't think short men in general are a hot commodity. Look at Tom Cruise and how he wears shoe lifts and is all picky about his height being depicted.

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

Masculine women are not men. No one that I know of wants to be reduced to body parts- boobs, vagina, etc.

Her partner refers to her as a woman in multiple instances. I don't know why people are trying to cast doubt on that.

Butches have been told all their lives they are wanna be men and ugly women.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Masculine women are not men. No one that I know of wants to be reduced to body parts- boobs, vagina, etc.

Her partner refers to her as a woman in multiple instances. I don't know why people are trying to cast doubt on that.

Butches have been told all their lives they are wanna be men and ugly women.

I can see how that is hurtful.

I'm off to give it more thought.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

If I understand right, it's that the word "man" was used to describe a woman.

When people describe a woman who is not stereotypically feminine/beautiful as "a man" then the message that comes across is that the only proper way to be a woman is to be stereotypically feminine/beautiful--in other words, if you aren't clearly and easily labeled "feminine" you must be a man.

The problem is, that message leaves out all the other ways of being a woman, including being a Butch woman. You could say that it steals a lot of space from being a woman and labels it all "man." That message makes "man" worth more than "woman" and that's why it is misogynist.

Hope that helps!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

If I understand right, it's that the word "man" was used to describe a woman.

When people describe a woman who is not stereotypically feminine/beautiful as "a man" then the message that comes across is that the only proper way to be a woman is to be stereotypically feminine/beautiful--in other words, if you aren't clearly and easily labeled "feminine" you must be a man.

The problem is, that message leaves out all the other ways of being a woman, including being a Butch woman. You could say that it steals a lot of space from being a woman and labels it all "man." That message makes "man" worth more than "woman" and that's why it is misogynist.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, Kind of. I'm really trying to see it. I need to close my eyeballs and ponder it quietly I think.

[Bit]

I went to the Advocate and read the whole article. Here's the part which seems most relevant to me.

If there was any surprise among Nixon’s fans upon seeing her with Marinoni, it was that she’s clearly different than the women we’re used to seeing Nixon with. Marinoni dresses in men’s clothes. She looks butch. She’d clearly be the odd woman out at brunch with Miranda, Samantha, Charlotte, and Carrie.

“She’s basically a short man with boobs,” Nixon says, laughing.

http://www.advocate.com/Print_Issue/Cover_Stories/Cynthia_Nixon_is_More_Than_Just_Sex/

It seems to me the interviewer led Nixon to this statement; to me the interviewer was saying, "most people see you as this character in a show, and they expect you to be seen with other similar characters... what do you think people will see when you are out with your partner?"

I read her response as saying, "most people will see a short man with boobs." Now I get it that she actually said "she's basically a...." but I think that was clumsy language. When people are laughing, they're not necessarily careful how they phrase their sentences, yanno? It really seems to me that she meant that people would expect to see her with stereotypically beautiful actresses, and would think she was instead with a man who had boobs.

Because that's the way I read the article, it also seems to me that she herself was not categorizing her partner as much as she was commenting on the way other people categorize her partner. People have categorized some of my exes in a similar way; I mean seriously, how can a person look at someone wearing women's earrings and a pink women's sweatshirt, someone who has a nicely prominent female chest, and say "sir"? How can they continue to say "sir" even after the person speaks in a clearly female voice?

So if this is the way Nixon intended to be understood, then I have a shared experience with her because I also have seen other people assume that a lesbian is a man with boobs. It was diminishing to the lesbian in question, and she was quite vocal about hating it... but I have also known other lesbians, especially Butches, who have had similar experiences and have just laughed it off.