"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

Andrew, Jr. · 11-27-2009, 04:56 PM

I think how you want to label yourself is up to you. It's like choosing a color of an ipod. Whatever you want, it is your choice. Like everyone else, I too have heard that b/f is dying or dead by now. However, in my life and my world, it is fully alive, well, and kicking.

What would be a new updated or cosmo name for a femme then? I think it is so confusing because I look at a woman's soul morethan what is between her legs.

Isadora, I loved your post. I remember those days. Unbelieveable, but yet it did happen.

Namaste,
Andrew

WILDCAT · 11-27-2009, 10:48 PM

Just found and read this thread today. (And yes, I am a VERY slow reader - AND A.D.D., thus like to take my time to "digest".)

Seems to me, that "at least" four different "thought topics" spurned off of this intial thought topic here.

So, I'm thinking this is a factor in the discussion at hand - as well as the "bits and pieces" of confussion seemingly here and there (?)

What do I say? I can't even begin to explain to you all how I feel about the so many different responses here. HOWEVER, I will say... this stayed much more civil than I "THOUGHT" it would.

And "thank you" for that.

I'll just respond to MY thoughts on the topic, and/or whatever came up that I felt was pertinent.

I feel people's pain.

I understand the need for "change".

I respect everything and everybody - provided that they respect equally back in exchange. (WELL, that would be "more MY HOPE"... I guess anyway.)
___

First of all:

*No one can disappear unless they "choose" to, simply... leave. (Or, the big meteor hits, of course.)

*History will always be "what it already IS"...

*Why: don't we separate what is tough for us in the real world - from what we're doing to each other here?

*How about "expectations vs. assumptions", and then JUDGEMENT here in our community? Perhaps we could take a better look at that (?)

*I love music, "be-bop" came back. (And jazz, and blues, etc... and some NEVER EVEN EVER LEFT.)

I will say that I totally respect ALL persons where they say they are, identities and such...

I will also say, I don't understand "how we canNOT"?

I don't understand how anyone could "assume" anyone's ID is BETTER than another - what THEY are saying... "is BEST FOR THEM"! Period.

I don't understand how folks DON'T understand, to respect that which is before you - to ignoring that part of history...(?)

I wonder how/why I continue to be fried for my part of the 70's movement when I was a masculine woman (or feminine, it WOULD NOT MATTER!), and/WHO did not "care" about the b/f dynamic in any negative manner, as I recognized and UNDERSTOOD it was a necessary part of the "history/HERSTORY" part of/for ALL of us. I don't GET how folks are still taking this "personal". I don't GET how folks are judging ME (some general US folks, through that time period), STILL from that also necessary period of time. And I don't get how the other's through this same movement would "today" cling onto the B/F dynamic in ANY negative way, after all of this processing! (EXCEPT for the perpetuated sexist and misogynist crap... which IS REAL, the STILL ABUSIVE SHIT AGAINST ALL FEMALES - NOT ALL JUST ROLE-PLAYED or the beloved in the "BF dynamics".)

I don't GET how people don't understand how we can move and grow through changes and accept, accept, accept - as we have surely done...

And why do we have to "keep proving" that WE deserve a "spot" here, in our OWN dynamics? Welcoming as we are? (Not "foolproof, no, but it goes BOTH ways"...)
___

I was a young kid, running through the fields of Mich. Fest, with no shirt feeling THAT freedom (for the first time... well, except from childhood when my mother LET me!), listening to music that was basically "folk music" at that time, but FINALLY to MY EARS: "women loving women" music!

I went on to become politcally involved during the late 70's, and although recognizing that "there were STIGMAS"... only held truth for that which was the priority for gaining what we needed to gain. I dismissed NO ONE. I thought "lip stick lesbians" were brave actually. (And butches, no matter the thought then!) And now look today where things are. We must go through these processes. I'm TIRED though, of folks relaying this as a "stuck in time" period to crucify FOREVER. I'm tired of being linked to a mentality that just does not hold true for us all as a set in motion "forever stuck thing"! And EVEN if it DOES for certain "political feminists", let the fuck go of that too and respect that! (And PLEASE, "get over it".) Thank you. If you've taken over a government building and still want to complain a bit, then go for it! Otherwise, maybe read and learn... and be just a bit more "thankful", perhaps. (If you haven't done such events.)

I'm also tired of folks spitting out "lesbian" as if it were the most horrible bad thing... the worst that you could be called. I'm tired of folks "ASSUMING" ALL folks on a site like this are "lesbians". The rage and anger it spurns is so painful FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, however... I can thus imagine how painful it also must be for those who are from all walks of ID's that do not care for this "generalization". I would be pissed too! Hell, I AM!! But, when this happens, and it gets SPIT OUT, yes, I am hurt. I wish folks would think of it that way too. Could we all be a bit more "considerate" here in this regards?

The butch/femme dynamic is so specific, but vague as well. It is our history, yes. Who should be bothered with anything as part of our history? Who should be offended and/or afraid of anything having to do with the future and different ID's and names, etc...? I just don't get that - either. (UNLESS we are negatively "put to rest"... or the future choices are being "nailed as wrong"! I just don't/can't see that...) I DO get that I need to be respected. I DO UNDERSTAND that the current generation MUST BE RESPECTED. I want and NEED to trust them! No one should feel pressured to adhere to a certain "protocol", from the past. No one is STUCK from "politcal movements", (PLEASE again, fucking let that go??? Except for the ones that DON'T want that "let go" WHO WERE INVOLVED, and that is "THEIR RIGHT TO", but being categorized and generalized from this time period today is pure BULLSHIT)! And no one should JUDGE a DAMN THING. Ever. Never. Find how it fits into "your scheme" of politics and/or lifetstyle/history/HERSTORY, fine. But, no one should be judging. We grow, we learn, we experience, we GROW... we learn.

Just my intial thoughts on this. Thanks for reading.

WILDCAT.

iamkeri1 · 11-30-2009, 12:39 AM

I am really enjoying this thread. So many of you have made good points. I look forward to see what new terms will be brought in to the discussion. Perhaps one or two among us will find terms that we like - like a new pair of stillettos rather than our old comfortable tennies - exciting but uncomfortable at first.

I was prompted to look up synonyms for the word "butch" and came up with this.

(from Dictionary.com)
AC-DC, amazon, amphierotic, androgyne, auntie, autoerotic, bi-guy, bisexed, bisexual, bull dyke, catamite, chicken, deviant, dyke, effeminate, fag, faggot, fairy, femme, flit, fricatrice, fruit, gay, gunsel, homo, homoerotic, homophile, homosexual, homosexualist, hoyden, invert, lesbian, mannish, nance, pansy, pathic, perverted, punk, queen, queer, romp, sapphic, sapphist, tomboy, transvestite, tribade, tribadistic, virago

There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri

iamkeri1 · 11-30-2009, 01:12 AM

I just want to make the point here, that the rejection of b-f people by "regular lesbians" has not ended. This is an email I got around two weeks ago from someone I was talking to on plentyoffish.com (a personals site) She had made the first contact, and we had been exchanging emails for about two weeks.

The headline of my ad on POF reads...
"Femme looking for....Well, you know"

Hey Keri
Thanx for taking the time to tell me what you were looking for and giving me a little info on where you are at.
It doesn't look like we are looking for the same thing though. As I said, I'm not into the B/F thing or any roles. I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.
So it was good emailing you but I'm thinking we should just part ways.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you meet your dream lover.

I mean, I had Femme as the first word in my headline, why did she contact me in the first place if she was not interested in a femme? Also she did not "get" that I also am just me, and that I don't play roles either. A quandary for me, but fortunately not a painful one.

I do not think regular lesbians have grown to be any more accepting of femmes or the b-f dynamic. I think b-f people have come out of hiding. I think there are two separate plains of existence, maybe more than two, but I don't think they mix well. Also I would like to say that I am not using the word lesbian in any prejorative way. I love the word lesbian. To me it is our history, our evolution, our birthplace. I'm just using it to illustrate the separate cultures. Hopefully some day we will come to co-exist and comingle easily, but right now I think that is mostly not happening.

Smooches
Keri

SuperFemme · 11-30-2009, 09:03 AM

Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general.

iamkeri1 · 11-30-2009, 09:10 PM

Thanks for the response SF. Perhaps I did not make clear enough what I was trying to say. In our emails we were talking about doing activities together, not being lovers.

I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.

She didn't even want to have a femme companion to hang out with. Was I hurt by this? No. Was I perplexed? Indeed. Also a tiny bit insulted. Perhaps I did generalize somewhat from this particular experience. However it has been an expereince that has been repeated frequently in my life, though not recently ... since recently, I was married to an FTM and was perceived as straight. (A subject for another thread.)
Smooches,
Keri

Oh and I want to add one more thing. Yes indeed, we do have MANY lesbians on this site, But I hope, since it is called butchfemmeplanet, that we do not have ANY lesbians on board who would reject someone for friendship just because she was a femme.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general.

11-27-2009, 10:48 PM	#2
WILDCAT Member How Do You Identify?: Very PROUD BUTCH LESBIAN! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: PA Posts: 679 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 796 Thanked 551 Times in 238 Posts Rep Power: 761792	Goodness... Just found and read this thread today. (And yes, I am a VERY slow reader - AND A.D.D., thus like to take my time to "digest".) Seems to me, that "at least" four different "thought topics" spurned off of this intial thought topic here. So, I'm thinking this is a factor in the discussion at hand - as well as the "bits and pieces" of confussion seemingly here and there (?) What do I say? I can't even begin to explain to you all how I feel about the so many different responses here. HOWEVER, I will say... this stayed much more civil than I "THOUGHT" it would. And "thank you" for that. I'll just respond to MY thoughts on the topic, and/or whatever came up that I felt was pertinent. I feel people's pain. I understand the need for "change". I respect everything and everybody - provided that they respect equally back in exchange. (WELL, that would be "more MY HOPE"... I guess anyway.) ___ First of all: No one can disappear unless they "choose" to, simply... leave. (Or, the big meteor hits, of course.) History will always be "what it *already IS"...* *Why: don't we separate what is tough for us in the real world - from what we're doing to each other here? How about "expectations vs. assumptions", and then JUDGEMENT here in our community? Perhaps we could take a better look at that (?) I love music, "be-bop" came back. (And jazz, and blues, etc... and some NEVER EVEN EVER* LEFT.) I will say that I totally respect ALL persons where they say they are, identities and such... I will also say, I don't understand "how we canNOT"? I don't understand how anyone could "assume" anyone's ID is BETTER than another - what THEY are saying... "is BEST FOR THEM"! Period. I don't understand how folks DON'T understand, to respect that which is before you - to ignoring that part of history...(?) I wonder how/why I continue to be fried for my part of the 70's movement when I was a masculine woman (or feminine, it WOULD NOT MATTER!), and/WHO did not "care" about the b/f dynamic in any negative manner, as I recognized and UNDERSTOOD it was a necessary part of the "history/HERSTORY" part of/for ALL of us. I don't GET how folks are still taking this "personal". I don't GET how folks are judging ME (some general US folks, through that time period), STILL from that also necessary period of time. And I don't get how the other's through this same movement would "today" cling onto the B/F dynamic in ANY negative way, after all of this processing! (EXCEPT for the perpetuated sexist and misogynist crap... which IS REAL, the STILL ABUSIVE SHIT AGAINST ALL FEMALES - NOT ALL JUST ROLE-PLAYED or the beloved* in the "BF dynamics".) I don't GET how people don't understand how we can move and grow through changes and accept, accept, accept - as we have surely done... And why do we have to "keep proving" that WE deserve a "spot" here, in our OWN dynamics? Welcoming as we are? (Not "foolproof, no, but it goes BOTH ways"...) ___ I was a young kid, running through the fields of Mich. Fest, with no shirt feeling THAT freedom (for the first time... well, except from childhood when my mother LET me!), listening to music that was basically "folk music" at that time, but FINALLY to MY EARS: "women loving women" music! I went on to become politcally involved during the late 70's, and although recognizing that "there were STIGMAS"... only held truth for that which was the priority for gaining what we needed to gain. I dismissed NO ONE. I thought "lip stick lesbians" were brave actually. (And butches, no matter the thought then!) And now look today where things are. We must go through these processes. I'm TIRED though, of folks relaying this as a "stuck in time" period to crucify FOREVER. I'm tired of being linked to a mentality that just does not hold true for us all as a set in motion "forever stuck thing"! And EVEN if it DOES for certain "political feminists", let the fuck go of that too and respect that! (And PLEASE, "get over it".) Thank you. If you've taken over a government building and still want to complain a bit, then go for it! Otherwise, maybe read and learn... and be just a bit more "thankful", perhaps. (If you haven't done such events.) I'm also tired of folks spitting out "lesbian" as if it were the most horrible bad thing... the worst that you could be called. I'm tired of folks "ASSUMING" ALL folks on a site like this are "lesbians". The rage and anger it spurns is so painful FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, however... I can thus imagine how painful it also must be for those who are from all walks of ID's that do not care for this "generalization". I would be pissed too! Hell, I AM!! But, when this happens, and it gets SPIT OUT, yes, I am hurt. I wish folks would think of it that way too. Could we all be a bit more "considerate" here in this regards? The butch/femme dynamic is so specific, but vague as well. It is our history, yes. Who should be bothered with anything as part of our history? Who should be offended and/or afraid of anything having to do with the future and different ID's and names, etc...? I just don't get that - either. (UNLESS we are negatively "put to rest"... or the future choices are being "nailed as wrong"! I just don't/can't see that...) I DO get that I need to be respected. I DO UNDERSTAND that the current generation MUST BE RESPECTED. I want and NEED to trust them! No one should feel pressured to adhere to a certain "protocol", from the past. No one is STUCK from "politcal movements", (PLEASE again, fucking let that go??? Except for the ones that DON'T want that "let go" WHO WERE INVOLVED, and that is "THEIR RIGHT TO", but being categorized and generalized from this time period today is pure BULLSHIT)! And no one should JUDGE a DAMN THING. Ever. Never. Find how it fits into "your scheme" of politics and/or lifetstyle/history/HERSTORY, fine. But, no one should be judging. We grow, we learn, we experience, we GROW... we learn. Just my intial thoughts on this. Thanks for reading. WILDCAT.

11-27-2009, 04:56 PM	#1
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	I think how you want to label yourself is up to you. It's like choosing a color of an ipod. Whatever you want, it is your choice. Like everyone else, I too have heard that b/f is dying or dead by now. However, in my life and my world, it is fully alive, well, and kicking. What would be a new updated or cosmo name for a femme then? I think it is so confusing because I look at a woman's soul morethan what is between her legs. Isadora, I loved your post. I remember those days. Unbelieveable, but yet it did happen. Namaste, Andrew

11-30-2009, 12:39 AM	#3
iamkeri1 Member How Do You Identify?: femme woman Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: solo Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 905 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 302 Thanked 2,153 Times in 659 Posts Rep Power: 16642921	I am really enjoying this thread. So many of you have made good points. I look forward to see what new terms will be brought in to the discussion. Perhaps one or two among us will find terms that we like - like a new pair of stillettos rather than our old comfortable tennies - exciting but uncomfortable at first. I was prompted to look up synonyms for the word "butch" and came up with this. (from Dictionary.com) AC-DC, amazon, amphierotic, androgyne, auntie, autoerotic, bi-guy, bisexed, bisexual, bull dyke, catamite, chicken, deviant, dyke, effeminate, fag, faggot, fairy, femme, flit, fricatrice, fruit, gay, gunsel, homo, homoerotic, homophile, homosexual, homosexualist, hoyden, invert, lesbian, mannish, nance, pansy, pathic, perverted, punk, queen, queer, romp, sapphic, sapphist, tomboy, transvestite, tribade, tribadistic, virago There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting. amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary 1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual . 2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once. It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated. Smooches Keri

11-30-2009, 01:12 AM	#4
iamkeri1 Member How Do You Identify?: femme woman Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: solo Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 905 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 302 Thanked 2,153 Times in 659 Posts Rep Power: 16642921	I just want to make the point here, that the rejection of b-f people by "regular lesbians" has not ended. This is an email I got around two weeks ago from someone I was talking to on plentyoffish.com (a personals site) She had made the first contact, and we had been exchanging emails for about two weeks. The headline of my ad on POF reads... "Femme looking for....Well, you know" Hey Keri Thanx for taking the time to tell me what you were looking for and giving me a little info on where you are at. It doesn't look like we are looking for the same thing though. As I said, I'm not into the B/F thing or any roles. I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities. So it was good emailing you but I'm thinking we should just part ways. I wish you the best of luck and hope you meet your dream lover. I mean, I had Femme as the first word in my headline, why did she contact me in the first place if she was not interested in a femme? Also she did not "get" that I also am just me, and that I don't play roles either. A quandary for me, but fortunately not a painful one. I do not think regular lesbians have grown to be any more accepting of femmes or the b-f dynamic. I think b-f people have come out of hiding. I think there are two separate plains of existence, maybe more than two, but I don't think they mix well. Also I would like to say that I am not using the word lesbian in any prejorative way. I love the word lesbian. To me it is our history, our evolution, our birthplace. I'm just using it to illustrate the separate cultures. Hopefully some day we will come to co-exist and comingle easily, but right now I think that is mostly not happening. Smooches Keri

11-30-2009, 09:03 AM	#5
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know". I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO. This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general.