"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by Victoria

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. makes me all squicky....

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by turasultana

Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. makes me all squicky....

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Transgendered is a huge umbrella term that is used, everyone on this site embraces their ID or label in their own way.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

I'm gonna try to be gentile here. Some of us, myself included, do not consider ourselves lesbians. How we, specifically me, identify isn't up to anyone else to figure out. I am a human first, not a label, and certainly not a lesbian, of whom there are aplenty here. Welcome to the site, I hope you do a lot of reading.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

Originally Posted by Victoria

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

"universal meaning"? "scientific"?....of what please? a human being? define "Victoria". what does it mean scientifically? what single definition does the rest of the planet use to indicate "Victoria" to the global population?

Originally Posted by Victoria

It's all just too complicated... I don't know.

i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.

Originally Posted by Victoria

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't........And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

"of course"

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.

Originally Posted by Gemme

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

I love this question.


i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.


This I actually disagree with a bit. Some folks need to break things down into bite-size pieces of information for themselves. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. Our community is complex. We, as humans, are complex. Love is complex. Some people need to bring some simplicity to their lives in order to lie down with the complexity of it all.

Note: this is not in relation to what you were responding to....just my thoughts as I was reading your responses.

"of course"

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.

What good are first impressions if an impression has already been formed before you meet someone? Good point.


thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger.

(((hugs)))

Breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out...

[LieslKate]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

and if you would like to learn more about where Butch / Femme came from a great starting place is "Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold" written by:
"Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy and Madeline D. Davis. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold: The History of a Lesbian Community. New York: Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (March 1, 1994) Language: English, ISBN-10: 0140235507, ISBN-13: 978-0140235500
Kennedy and Davis look at a group of lesbians in this book that are largely under-studied. Specifically, they examine working-class lesbians from the mid-1930’s to the early 1960’s in Buffalo, New York. Boots is actually the result of a thirteen-year-long oral history research project designed to focus on the culture of survival and resistance of older, working-class lesbians. What this focus revealed was the centrality of butch-fem roles. A major assumption that Kennedy and Davis work from is that these women’s openness about their lesbianism was crucial not only to the communities they helped form in their own time, but to all lesbian communities which they have provided a model for that have emerged since. They even go so far as to posit that these older lesbians and their lives constitute a prepolitical stage of the 1970’s gay rights movement. Approaching their project from such pre-determined celebratory standpoints drives Kennedy and Davis’ research in a biased manner. While not without its limitations, this study remains groundbreaking work.

In regards to Boots’ relevance to cultural landscape studies, Kennedy and Davis discovered that in their search for working-class lesbians, they found them in public spaces, primarily bar communities. Furthermore, when seeking to uncover lesbian cultures of survival and resistance it was exactly the bar communities that proved to be sites of such politics. Particularly useful to cultural landscapes scholars are chapters 2-4, which “explain the growth and development of the lesbian community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1940’s and 1950’s” (25). More specifically, chapter 2 concentrates on the establishment of public lesbian communities; chapter 3 describes the growing public resistance to heteronormative society and the expansion of lesbians’ public presence via lesbian bars; and, chapter 4 examines with more depth how race and class affected community formations within lesbian communities as bars were desegregated and class stratification emerged. Chapter 5, which focuses on how visibility affects the formation of community, identity, and consciousness, may also prove useful to those interested in lesbians (especially butch lesbians) within traditionally defined “public” spaces such as the street. [J. Sapinoso]"

Publisher Comments:
When most lesbians had to hide, how did they find one another? Were the bars of the 1940s and 1950s more fun than the bars today? Did Black and white lesbians socialize together? Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is a ground-breaking account of the growth of the lesbian community in Buffalo, New York from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s Drawing on oral histories collected from 45 women, it is the first comprehensive history of a working-class lesbian community. These poignant and complex stories provide a new look at Black and white working-class lesbians as powerful agents of historical change. Their creativity and resilience under oppressive circumstances constructed a better life for all lesbians and expanded possibilities for all women. Based on 13 years of research, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold ranges over topics including sex, relationships, coming out, butch-fem roles, motherhood, aging, racism, work, oppression, and pride. Kennedy and Davis provide a unique insider's perspective on butch-fem culture and trace the roots of gay and lesbian liberation to the determined resistance of working-class lesbians. The book begins by focusing on the growth and development of community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1930s, '40s, and '50s. It goes on to explore the code of personal behavior and social imperative in butch-fem culture, centering on dress, mannerisms, and gendered sexuality. Finally the book examines serial monogamy, the social forces which shaped love and break-ups, and the changing nature and content of lesbian identity. Capturing the full complexity of lesbian culture, this outstanding book includes extensive quotes fromnarrators that make every topic a living document, a composite picture of the lives of real people fighting for respect and for a place that would be safe for their love. "

"Based on 13 years of research, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold ranges over topics including sex, relationships, coming out, butch-fem roles, motherhood, aging, racism, work, oppression, and pride. Kennedy and Davis provide a unique insider's perspective on butch-fem culture, and trace the roots of gay and lesbian liberation to the determined resistance of working-class lesbians. The book begins by focusing on the growth and development of community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. It goes on to explore the code of personal behavior and social imperative in butch-fem culture, centering on dress, mannerisms, and gendered sexuality. Finally the book examines serial monogamy, the social forces which shaped love and break-ups, and the changing nature and content of lesbian identity.

Capturing the full complexity of lesbianculture, this outstanding book includes extensive quotes from narrators that make every topic a living document, a composite picture of the lives of real people fighting for respect and for a place that would be safe for their love.

Tracing the roots of gay liberation to the creativity and resilience of lesbian communities such as the one in Buffalo, New York, the authors explore how these women paved the way for a better life for lesbians and gays, and provide a unique insider's perspective on everything from sex, relationships, and motherhood to aging, racism, and pride.

This first ethnography on the development of working-class lesbian communities from the 1930s to the 1960s focuses on a Buffalo, New York, lesbian community. Unlike gay men, gay women, by dressing the way they wanted, going to bars regularly, being financially independent from their families of origin and from men, and by boldly seeking out the company of other women like themselves, unwittingly created a community of their own. The authors argue that because the women in the community gave one another the support necessary to respond aggressively and ``with pride'' when facing an often disapproving and hostile society, they effectively built the real foundation of the gay and lesbian liberation movement. The oral histories of 45 women tell of victimization by their families, straight men, and one another but also recount the joys these women experienced by allowing themselves to be who they really were. Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthropology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. For academic libraries and women's studies collections.-- Patricia Sarles, Brooklyn Public Library, New York "

Reviews:
". . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . .." -- Ms. Magazine

"This should be seen as a groundbreaking book, a fascinating look at the pre-political support systems, of friendship groups extended to include ex-lovers' families and children that became one of the foundation blocks for building the gay/lesbian communities of our day." -- San Francisco Review of Books

At a time when many lesbian and gay leaders are urging assimilation and moderation, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold recovers a neglected chapter of lesbian and gay history and reminds us of the enduring importance of outlaw roots. -- San Francisco Chronicle-Examiner

. . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . . -- Ms. Magazine

The book soars on the plain, yet eloquent voices of the women. . . -- Boston Globe

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in womens history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

Rarely does a book break entirely new ground, but this is surely one that does. With love, passion, and empathy, Kennedy and Davis bring to life the history of a working-class lesbian community. A complex, fascinating, and evocative world, it has much to tell us about gender, sexuality, class, and urban life. Above all, this is a story about the triumph of the human spirit over horrible adversity. The voices of these women sing on every page. -- John DEmilio, University of North Carolina at Greensboro

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold incorporates both academic values of sound scholarship and the lesbian communitys need for roots and for affirmation of our identity as woman-loving women. -- The Empty Chest

This very first community study of lesbians will radically advance the state of knowledge in gay and lesbian studies. Nuanced, lovingly researched and provocative, both the description and the argument are food for thinking people. -- Esther Newton, State University of New York at Purchase and author of Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in Americas First Gay and Lesbian Town

...Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy's and Madeline D. Davis' history of the lesbian working-class cummunity in Buffalo. Drawing on oral history as well as records, the authors have represented a microcosmic study of a fascinating and vital community. The importance of class and race and the techniques of survival in the face of oppression marked the historical experience of these women. Kennedy and Davis have written about the specific local development of a consciousness of a kind that is required for a liberation movement and that they show existed before Stonewall in Buffalo. -- The Los Angeles Times

http://books.google.com/books?id=0T8...age&q=&f=false

Can't know where you are going 'til you know where you came from...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by turasultana

Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. makes me all squicky....

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

I was only referring to how it felt to call MY partner that since it doesn't fit him at all. Not anyone else on the site. If that was misinterpreted or said in a way that implied anything other than that I apologize.