"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Isadora]

... the whole discussion brings up issues and fears for me cause I have already been through this once in the 70's during the feminist era when I was called a "pawn of the patriarchy" and "copying heterosexual relationships".

The pressure then was no labels. The ugliness of either be andro or you are not welcome in our community and I mean we were ostracized, was sometimes violent. Ever have an angry feminist lesbian pull your hair (too long and girly), push you down and take your heels and throw them, or take your lipstick and write all over your face? I heard in 1970's "butch/femme is dead and old." All these things happened.

Those of us who lived through it know that to see it come around again seems dismissive and hurtful all over again. To write us off as too boxed in is unfair and truly offensive. Gender queer works for some, but to say it is more label free or more andro, and imply that it is better and younger and m ore hip, dismisses my history, dismisses me as a vital person in the universe. There is not, for me, a better form of self description.

Being ridiculed for being femme or butch and appreciating those descriptors was the norm in the 70's. I published and article about 10 years back about this part of the b/f past, one butch said "Everyone wanted to fuck me but they wouldn't walk down the street with me the next morning. No one would talk to me at meetings. I would walk in and there would be a dead silence."

As I said in my first post, I find it very interesting that the discussion is about the alternative terms for butch and none for femme. I agree with Unndunn, about femme invisibility. I, also believe that butch/femme is part of the queer paradigm. For me, a person who is not queer/gay/lesbian/dyke/transensual is not femme, she can be feminine but not femme. Besides, I don't want to change my descriptor.

*sits back and waits for it*

Then too, I heard b/f is dead or dying. Still here. Still alive. Still kickin!

[Jess]

Interesting article, while I continue to marinate this topic ...

http://katebornstein.typepad.com/kat...a-butchfe.html

Also.. regarding using posts from b-f.com ( the site who must not be spoken... ) I have no issue with using any reference I can find to help educate myself and/or assist myself in making points that my limited vocabulary/ vernacular might hinder me from doing. While, I will not repost parts of threads from there as per the owners copyright stuff, I do feel completely in the right in using posts there as " jumping off points" or reference points for any conversation I may have regarding the butch-femme dynamic.

I appreciate the discussion very much. Thank you Medusa for opening it!

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

Thanks Linus,

I'll have to search the thread to find them all. I've never heard of Aggressive, but I don't get out much, lol.

[Jess]

This topic has had me doing a good deal of reading again. This is a link to an exciting project that tells me the dynamic is still alive and well and embracing folks of all ages.

http://www.apersistentdesire.com/index.html

[Jess]

A couple of other noteworthy films...

The Aggressives and My Femme Divine.. both document different views on the butch/ femme dynamic.

[Darth Denkay]

Reading through the thread (and the similar one on the other site) one thing stands out to me - the part semantics plays in this discussion. As we know, choice of words can be really powerful. One word that I've seen (on which thread I can't recall) is that the younger generation is re-writing/re-defining butch-femme. When written that way, yeah, I get defensive. Those words, to me, suggest change that more or less does away with the prior terms, identities. In my mind, it implies that butch-femme is no longer and we now will use these other terms, the culture will change, and those of us who hold to the butch-femme community will be left behind. I don't think that's what's happening - the butch-femme community as we know it is too strong to be erased. Younger folks may use different terms, and certainly the culture will change, but I think it's more of incorporating the new rather than replacing the old with the new. Does that distinction make sense?

Several have shared good resources. Another I would add is "Boots of leather, slippers of gold: The history of a lesbian community". The organized lesbian community happened starting in the 30s and 40s, and it WAS butch-femme. I expect lesbians who are opposed to butch-femme would be quite upset to know that, but lesbian history (as an organized community) began with us. Since that time I'm sure the culture has changed, and it will continue to. However, that doesn't mean the history will be erased (which is where I have my freak-out) and I do believe we will always have a place here. I don't see the shift being as drastic as when butch-femme went underground because lesbian feminists saw us as the evil lesbian version of the patriarchy. And if we think about it, at that time lesbians wanted to see us gone - and while we went underground, we didn't go away. I think the current shift is far less drastic, and we won't be going anywhere. Our culture may expand, but we're not leaving.

[Darth Denkay]

Hey Kosmo,

You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic.

The reference is

Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51.

Here's a summary of the results:

• 75% of the ads did not self-identify as femme or butch
• 14% self-identified as femme and 11% as butch
• 66% did not mention femme or butch in terms of who they sought
• In the ads that specified seeking femme or butch, 26% sought femme and 5% butch, with a few explicitly indicating "no butches"
• Those who self-identified as femme sought femme partners 56% versus butch partners 18% (the remaining 26% did not specify)
• 10% of those who did not identify as butch or femme specified wanting a femme partner; none specified wanting a butch partner
• Of those who self-identified as butch requested femme partners 74% and butch partners 7%

Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt.

-Wicket

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think how you want to label yourself is up to you. It's like choosing a color of an ipod. Whatever you want, it is your choice. Like everyone else, I too have heard that b/f is dying or dead by now. However, in my life and my world, it is fully alive, well, and kicking.

What would be a new updated or cosmo name for a femme then? I think it is so confusing because I look at a woman's soul morethan what is between her legs.

Isadora, I loved your post. I remember those days. Unbelieveable, but yet it did happen.

Namaste,
Andrew

[WILDCAT]

Just found and read this thread today. (And yes, I am a VERY slow reader - AND A.D.D., thus like to take my time to "digest".)

Seems to me, that "at least" four different "thought topics" spurned off of this intial thought topic here.

So, I'm thinking this is a factor in the discussion at hand - as well as the "bits and pieces" of confussion seemingly here and there (?)

What do I say? I can't even begin to explain to you all how I feel about the so many different responses here. HOWEVER, I will say... this stayed much more civil than I "THOUGHT" it would.

And "thank you" for that.

I'll just respond to MY thoughts on the topic, and/or whatever came up that I felt was pertinent.

I feel people's pain.

I understand the need for "change".

I respect everything and everybody - provided that they respect equally back in exchange. (WELL, that would be "more MY HOPE"... I guess anyway.)
___

First of all:

*No one can disappear unless they "choose" to, simply... leave. (Or, the big meteor hits, of course.)

*History will always be "what it already IS"...

*Why: don't we separate what is tough for us in the real world - from what we're doing to each other here?

*How about "expectations vs. assumptions", and then JUDGEMENT here in our community? Perhaps we could take a better look at that (?)

*I love music, "be-bop" came back. (And jazz, and blues, etc... and some NEVER EVEN EVER LEFT.)

I will say that I totally respect ALL persons where they say they are, identities and such...

I will also say, I don't understand "how we canNOT"?

I don't understand how anyone could "assume" anyone's ID is BETTER than another - what THEY are saying... "is BEST FOR THEM"! Period.

I don't understand how folks DON'T understand, to respect that which is before you - to ignoring that part of history...(?)

I wonder how/why I continue to be fried for my part of the 70's movement when I was a masculine woman (or feminine, it WOULD NOT MATTER!), and/WHO did not "care" about the b/f dynamic in any negative manner, as I recognized and UNDERSTOOD it was a necessary part of the "history/HERSTORY" part of/for ALL of us. I don't GET how folks are still taking this "personal". I don't GET how folks are judging ME (some general US folks, through that time period), STILL from that also necessary period of time. And I don't get how the other's through this same movement would "today" cling onto the B/F dynamic in ANY negative way, after all of this processing! (EXCEPT for the perpetuated sexist and misogynist crap... which IS REAL, the STILL ABUSIVE SHIT AGAINST ALL FEMALES - NOT ALL JUST ROLE-PLAYED or the beloved in the "BF dynamics".)

I don't GET how people don't understand how we can move and grow through changes and accept, accept, accept - as we have surely done...

And why do we have to "keep proving" that WE deserve a "spot" here, in our OWN dynamics? Welcoming as we are? (Not "foolproof, no, but it goes BOTH ways"...)
___

I was a young kid, running through the fields of Mich. Fest, with no shirt feeling THAT freedom (for the first time... well, except from childhood when my mother LET me!), listening to music that was basically "folk music" at that time, but FINALLY to MY EARS: "women loving women" music!

I went on to become politcally involved during the late 70's, and although recognizing that "there were STIGMAS"... only held truth for that which was the priority for gaining what we needed to gain. I dismissed NO ONE. I thought "lip stick lesbians" were brave actually. (And butches, no matter the thought then!) And now look today where things are. We must go through these processes. I'm TIRED though, of folks relaying this as a "stuck in time" period to crucify FOREVER. I'm tired of being linked to a mentality that just does not hold true for us all as a set in motion "forever stuck thing"! And EVEN if it DOES for certain "political feminists", let the fuck go of that too and respect that! (And PLEASE, "get over it".) Thank you. If you've taken over a government building and still want to complain a bit, then go for it! Otherwise, maybe read and learn... and be just a bit more "thankful", perhaps. (If you haven't done such events.)

I'm also tired of folks spitting out "lesbian" as if it were the most horrible bad thing... the worst that you could be called. I'm tired of folks "ASSUMING" ALL folks on a site like this are "lesbians". The rage and anger it spurns is so painful FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, however... I can thus imagine how painful it also must be for those who are from all walks of ID's that do not care for this "generalization". I would be pissed too! Hell, I AM!! But, when this happens, and it gets SPIT OUT, yes, I am hurt. I wish folks would think of it that way too. Could we all be a bit more "considerate" here in this regards?

The butch/femme dynamic is so specific, but vague as well. It is our history, yes. Who should be bothered with anything as part of our history? Who should be offended and/or afraid of anything having to do with the future and different ID's and names, etc...? I just don't get that - either. (UNLESS we are negatively "put to rest"... or the future choices are being "nailed as wrong"! I just don't/can't see that...) I DO get that I need to be respected. I DO UNDERSTAND that the current generation MUST BE RESPECTED. I want and NEED to trust them! No one should feel pressured to adhere to a certain "protocol", from the past. No one is STUCK from "politcal movements", (PLEASE again, fucking let that go??? Except for the ones that DON'T want that "let go" WHO WERE INVOLVED, and that is "THEIR RIGHT TO", but being categorized and generalized from this time period today is pure BULLSHIT)! And no one should JUDGE a DAMN THING. Ever. Never. Find how it fits into "your scheme" of politics and/or lifetstyle/history/HERSTORY, fine. But, no one should be judging. We grow, we learn, we experience, we GROW... we learn.

Just my intial thoughts on this. Thanks for reading.

WILDCAT.

[iamkeri1]

I am really enjoying this thread. So many of you have made good points. I look forward to see what new terms will be brought in to the discussion. Perhaps one or two among us will find terms that we like - like a new pair of stillettos rather than our old comfortable tennies - exciting but uncomfortable at first.

I was prompted to look up synonyms for the word "butch" and came up with this.

(from Dictionary.com)
AC-DC, amazon, amphierotic, androgyne, auntie, autoerotic, bi-guy, bisexed, bisexual, bull dyke, catamite, chicken, deviant, dyke, effeminate, fag, faggot, fairy, femme, flit, fricatrice, fruit, gay, gunsel, homo, homoerotic, homophile, homosexual, homosexualist, hoyden, invert, lesbian, mannish, nance, pansy, pathic, perverted, punk, queen, queer, romp, sapphic, sapphist, tomboy, transvestite, tribade, tribadistic, virago


There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri

[iamkeri1]

I just want to make the point here, that the rejection of b-f people by "regular lesbians" has not ended. This is an email I got around two weeks ago from someone I was talking to on plentyoffish.com (a personals site) She had made the first contact, and we had been exchanging emails for about two weeks.

The headline of my ad on POF reads...
"Femme looking for....Well, you know"

Hey Keri
Thanx for taking the time to tell me what you were looking for and giving me a little info on where you are at.
It doesn't look like we are looking for the same thing though. As I said, I'm not into the B/F thing or any roles. I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.
So it was good emailing you but I'm thinking we should just part ways.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you meet your dream lover.

I mean, I had Femme as the first word in my headline, why did she contact me in the first place if she was not interested in a femme? Also she did not "get" that I also am just me, and that I don't play roles either. A quandary for me, but fortunately not a painful one.

I do not think regular lesbians have grown to be any more accepting of femmes or the b-f dynamic. I think b-f people have come out of hiding. I think there are two separate plains of existence, maybe more than two, but I don't think they mix well. Also I would like to say that I am not using the word lesbian in any prejorative way. I love the word lesbian. To me it is our history, our evolution, our birthplace. I'm just using it to illustrate the separate cultures. Hopefully some day we will come to co-exist and comingle easily, but right now I think that is mostly not happening.

Smooches
Keri

[SuperFemme]

Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Hey Kosmo,

You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic.

The reference is

Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51.

Here's a summary of the results:

• 75% of the ads did not self-identify as femme or butch
• 14% self-identified as femme and 11% as butch
• 66% did not mention femme or butch in terms of who they sought
• In the ads that specified seeking femme or butch, 26% sought femme and 5% butch, with a few explicitly indicating "no butches"
• Those who self-identified as femme sought femme partners 56% versus butch partners 18% (the remaining 26% did not specify)
• 10% of those who did not identify as butch or femme specified wanting a femme partner; none specified wanting a butch partner
• Of those who self-identified as butch requested femme partners 74% and butch partners 7%

Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt.

-Wicket

Hey Wicket,

You should be the official BFP researcher.

[iamkeri1]

Thanks for the response SF. Perhaps I did not make clear enough what I was trying to say. In our emails we were talking about doing activities together, not being lovers.

I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.

She didn't even want to have a femme companion to hang out with. Was I hurt by this? No. Was I perplexed? Indeed. Also a tiny bit insulted. Perhaps I did generalize somewhat from this particular experience. However it has been an expereince that has been repeated frequently in my life, though not recently ... since recently, I was married to an FTM and was perceived as straight. (A subject for another thread.)
Smooches,
Keri

Oh and I want to add one more thing. Yes indeed, we do have MANY lesbians on this site, But I hope, since it is called butchfemmeplanet, that we do not have ANY lesbians on board who would reject someone for friendship just because she was a femme.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general.

[kittygrrl]

i think if youre in the younger crowd you want to make your own and distinguish yourself as somehow different, maybe even better For those of us who are old school using those terms resonate a particular unique perspective..butch/femme work just fine, why change perfection?..

[Darth Denkay]

I am very happy to report that amphierotic is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder. The DSM, which is the bible of sorts for mental disease does not include it, which means at some point it was removed. Kind of like homosexuality was removed in 1973.

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri

Thanks Kosmo!

To be honest, I actually do consider myself an "official" BF researcher. When I was working on my master's degree I was fortunate enough to do research with a prof who is femme, and we did a lot of research on butch-femme - resulted in 5 published articles. So as for academic studies on B/F I keep up with what's out there (although there isn't a great deal). In any case, I am very familiar with the B-F research that has been done.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hey Wicket,

You should be the official BFP researcher.

[Victoria]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.