"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).

I have heard transgendered described or defined as Victoria stated, as well. That it is a more spiritual based "gender" view and like some define "butch" or "femme" is in fact a third non-binary gender.

I think sometimes the liberties we ( society) take with language and the freedom to interpret "words" has become so easy to do and culture moves so quickly anymore, it is truly just hard to keep up.

Some folks place a "negative" connotation on the word "lesbian" , because it became viewed as the "made for men porn girl on girl" action. It got a bad rap within our own community, because we allowed it to. Ask five people to define "stone butch" and you may get five different variations.

I try not to get defensive these days when someone says ( or types) something that doesn't mesh with my internal dictionary, because with all of the influences on that dictionary, the very definitions may evolve and they may end up coming full circle if I stick around and watch.

I still have a lot of things I don't quite understand regarding gender choice/ expression relating to sexual choice/ expression and hell, I may never totally "get it" because it varies so from individual to individual. What I have come to understand, is that it is not for me to "judge" . Also that some folks are just easier to ask questions to than others. It takes a while to learn to speak the same language when it changes so much either geographically or within different "generations".

[Dragonfly]

I am not old or young and am smack in the middle. I only wanted to add my opinion. It has been insanely difficault for this midwestern hick here to filter through all the WRONG stereotypes I grew up accepting as "definitions" of what butch and femme meant. I am FINALLY getting a good handle on them and now someone wants to toss em in the trash and pick new ones??!?!? UH UH... just think about what that is saying.... just when the average non queer person is getting enough exposure to BEGIN to understand who and what we are standing for we go and CHANGE all the words they normally misunderstand and are starting to finally "get it".... Sounds like we can have both old and new whats the big deal. Add them as new ones dont replace them for the original ones!


** Just me imagining trying to explain that to my mom and pop who are just finally starting to "get it" and I dont wanna go back to hearing my dad wish me a "Happy Father's Day" in his effort to be accepting of me. Bless his reformed and once abusive heart. We have come to far to go back to square one. I can imagine explaining there are new terms that people ID with and they are >>>> etc.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by turasultana

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

I didn't misunderstand turasultana, I just felt the language used could have been better chosen as not to create misunderstanding... as acknowledged here yourself. Perhaps some don't feel the subtle knock the way that someone who identifies as lesbian might from a statement such as that (more the "makes me all squicky" than the "weird" part). But anyway I thought QofQ explained that very well.

Just an FYI, these posts are not from me as a moderator, but as a BFP member who wishes we all (including myself) would be more careful when we casually use inflammatory words when speaking of other peoples ID's. We don't need to always agree or think alike (and that's good) but we can try to make everyone feel as welcome and relaxed as we'd want to feel ourselves.

Metro

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Wow there is a lot of education going on in this thread, glad to see more people posting

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

perhaps it's a genetic flaw that human-kind feels compelled to disregard its past. it always has. figuring out how to evolve voluntarily...now there's a project.

i join you in your willing suspension of disbelief. i refuse to cast my chosen label aside.

i wont! i wont! i love my little label. it's mine!

i wanted it,

i found it,

i'm keeping it!



ahem.... (smoothing hair)
carry on.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Victoria

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.

forgive me...i would prefer not to be lumped into anyone's "proof" of anything. at "the "core" i am self-defined and not other-defined and at that core i am most certainly NOT a "lesbian". i am a femme. that is the gender that is stamped on the cells that make me. the adjunct to that innate identity, in my case, is queer.

we are all labeled, a necessity based on the limitations of humanity, language and cultural paradigm. we adopt some labels because they are often the easiest/only way to fit ourselves into various environments in a way which is understandable to the other inhabitants. i do it when absolutely necessary...in order to begin a dialogue for example. once that conversation is begun, the word lesbian is no longer one i use to describe myself. i have no issue with the term. it is simply not mine. it would be like calling myself Eva....when my name is Kathlene. Eva is a lovely name, i share some traits with many Eva's. but i am not Eva. i am Kathlene.

Sappho and Shakespeare may not have used our contemporary vernacular but it's only logical to presume they had their own ways of understanding the limitations and boxes of their respective cultural environments.

you're off the hook having to prove anything for my benefit. the music analogy was cool though.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

Originally Posted by Victoria

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

"universal meaning"? "scientific"?....of what please? a human being? define "Victoria". what does it mean scientifically? what single definition does the rest of the planet use to indicate "Victoria" to the global population?

Originally Posted by Victoria

It's all just too complicated... I don't know.

i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.

Originally Posted by Victoria

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't........And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

"of course"

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.

Originally Posted by Gemme

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Lesbian does = Homosexual.
This is my view AS A LESBIAN.

Not always. I was looking at it like a word problem. I'm homosexual, by textbook definition, but I am not a lesbian. Therefore, not all homosexuals are lesbians. So, no...for me....homosexual does not equal lesbian.

For you it does, but for me it does not. And if all parts of the equation do not agree, then it cannot be true. True meaning always true, in every situation.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

I love this question.


i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.


This I actually disagree with a bit. Some folks need to break things down into bite-size pieces of information for themselves. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. Our community is complex. We, as humans, are complex. Love is complex. Some people need to bring some simplicity to their lives in order to lie down with the complexity of it all.

Note: this is not in relation to what you were responding to....just my thoughts as I was reading your responses.

"of course"

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.

What good are first impressions if an impression has already been formed before you meet someone? Good point.


thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger.

(((hugs)))

Breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out...

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Not always. I was looking at it like a word problem. I'm homosexual, by textbook definition, but I am not a lesbian. Therefore, not all homosexuals are lesbians. So, no...for me....homosexual does not equal lesbian.

For you it does, but for me it does not. And if all parts of the equation do not agree, then it cannot be true. True meaning always true, in every situation.

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Interesting. I'm black and I identify myself as a butch. I don't know what other term I would use. Stud doesn't particularly resonate with me and, despite my wife saying that I'm a "force of nature", aggressive doesn't feel accurate to me. This is ME, of course, I'm not talking about other black women. Now, I'm no longer a 'younger person' being middle-aged but I wonder if, in another 20 years, when the young folks now are my age will it once again be 'antiquated'. I remember when I was in my twenties, butch femme was antiquated and we were all 'beyond labels'. The refrain of my generation was "I don't believe in labels" which, to no great surprise, always disappeared as soon as the words "look at that cute butch (or femme) over there" and every head would turn and if it was a butch, no one was looking at the woman in the dress, heels with make-up.

Sometimes, when I hear that "X does not resonate with POC" I am moved to wonder "so, am I not a woman of color..." but that's a different conversation entirely.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

Fair enough. I don't expect to understand everything about everyone nor to have them understand everything about me. I do expect them to respect me without invalidation and I, in turn, try to do the same.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

[Corkey]

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane (or different one altogether), maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane, maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense