"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

I don't understand your argument that the fact that other languages exist somehow changes the meaning of the english word "lesbian".

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

Awesome!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

Ummm, no, I don't see how you get there. Because you can take a word in French and translate it to a German word with the same meaning. There is a French word for dog. There is German word for dog. There is an English word for dog. These are not ALL the same word but they ALL reference a four-legged mammal of the species Canis familiaris descended from Canis lupus. The German word for dog is hund. The French word for dog is chien. The German word for dog does not map to the English word for, say, bird. The French word for dog does not map to, say, the German word for cat. Presuming that someone spoke all three languages, they would look at my pooch and could use hund, chien or dog at will and depending upon the listener's tongue, that person would know that they are talking about Angus (our Newfoundland/Bearded collie mix) and not Willow (our calico cat).

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

This is exactly where I am at.
Lesbian=Female Homosexual, but not the reverse? Not getting it.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No problem!!!!

[Corkey]

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it.

Gotcha! Okay, so I'll cop to wording that backwards and maybe that's where all of your focus has shifted. I can understand that, then.

So I am now...since I cannot edit my post at this point...asking you to see it from the other side. That all homosexuals are not necessarily lesbians. Does that make more sense to you?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

Not ALL homosexual women are Lesbian, simple as that. I am Not a lesbian, you are, your truth doesn't over ride mine.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Gotcha! Okay, so I'll cop to wording that backwards and maybe that's where all of your focus has shifted. I can understand that, then.

So I am now...since I cannot edit my post at this point...asking you to see it from the other side. That all homosexuals are not necessarily lesbians. Does that make more sense to you?

My focus has not shifted. You said that lesbian was not synonymous with homosexual. Yet it is. It doesn't matter if you say it backwards or forwards. Obviously gay men are not lesbians, nor are heterosexuals or bisexuals. Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not ALL homosexual women are Lesbian, simple as that. I am Not a lesbian, you are, your truth doesn't over ride mine.

It's not "my" truth- it's the english language, which is the one we are using here. So I guess what you mean to say is "that's the english language, not mine".
Tired of repeating myself! So I'll leave you kids to it!

On a personal note: when someone tells me they are not a lesbian/female homosexual, I believe them and accept them as such!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.




I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

[T D]

Honestly, I don't care if these terms are antiquated or not. They're part of our history and always will be, that's just the way history works. I get so tired of all this mincing of words and definitions. Quite frankly it's one of the reasons I left the "other" site.

As for any and all new terms used by our younger brothers and sisters (or whomever), let em have them... I'm only interested in dating and/or marrying a "femme" who knows she's a "femme". That's what compliments who I am.

Just sayin....

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

I think we're all tired here, so I guess I'll say poe tay toe and you can say poe ta toe. Either way, someone's getting a big ole batch of french fries down the line.

[Kosmo]

I was watching the discussion from a respectful distance, but I couldn't help researching the argument; so I apologize if I've now made mashed potatoes. From Wikipedia:

The fallacy of the undistributed middle is a logical fallacy that is committed when the middle term in a categorical syllogism is not distributed. It is thus a syllogistic fallacy. More specifically it is also a form of non sequitur.

The fallacy of the undistributed middle takes the following form:
All Zs are Bs.
Y is a B.
Therefore, Y is a Z.

It may or may not be the case that "all Zs are Bs," but in either case it is irrelevant to the conclusion. What is relevant to the conclusion is whether it is true that "all Bs are Zs," which is ignored in the argument.

Note that if the terms were swapped around in either the conclusion or the first co-premise or if the first premise was rewritten to "All Zs can only be Bs" then it would no longer be a fallacy, although it could still be unsound. This also holds for the following two logical fallacies which are similar in nature to the fallacy of the undistributed middle and also non sequiturs.

An example can be given as follows:
Men are humans.
Mary is a human.
Therefore, Mary is a man.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

[hippieflowergirl]

one of the things i find interesting in this discussion is the obvious path of evolution.

we are, many of us, part of something i think of as a "transitional generation". i'll use myself as an example.

my parents were between 20 and 30 years older than i am and were raised in a very cut and dried world: their grandparents and parents grew up working farmland, got married, owned a house, had several children who grew up working farmland, and they were together until death.

my parents thought they would have the same life but ended up chosing other work besides farming, traveled extensively, bought a house, raised one child, both of them worked, then dad went to college and just mom worked and they divorced when i was 17. in doing all of this, they deviated from the "norm" created by their parents and grandparents and several generations prior. their generation began an evolutionary transition out of a centuries old cultural paradigm.

i'm 46. i'm single and happy living alone. i've had my career and dont work currently. grad school starts in a few weeks. i rent rather than own and have no children. if i'd had children they would be in their 20s now and the wonders they imagined wouldnt have even registered on my grandparents' radar. they (and their future children/grandchildren) are cultural pioneers.

my point is that as humankind, science, philosophy and etc evolves, the language of such things will evolve as well. there will come a time when people will define themselves using a vocabulary that we would be wholly familiar with.

perhaps, the start of such evolution is discussions like this one. it might be easier to say that human beings are simply "sexual" and to agree that there are a million and one ways to express that truth. maybe that will come close to illuminating what it is we're all trying to explain to one another with such vehement calm.

or not.