"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

Awesome!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No problem!!!!

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

This is exactly where I am at.
Lesbian=Female Homosexual, but not the reverse? Not getting it.

[Corkey]

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.




I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it.

Gotcha! Okay, so I'll cop to wording that backwards and maybe that's where all of your focus has shifted. I can understand that, then.

So I am now...since I cannot edit my post at this point...asking you to see it from the other side. That all homosexuals are not necessarily lesbians. Does that make more sense to you?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

Not ALL homosexual women are Lesbian, simple as that. I am Not a lesbian, you are, your truth doesn't over ride mine.