"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

To be clear, I did not make you repeat that. You chose to do repeat that.

Pig is synonymous with swine and also with police officer (forgive me all my police officer friends.) My point is that the word "pig" has more than one definition (and very varied ones at that.) I'm sure we could both list a slew of words with similar multi-tasking uses.

I see that this discussion has simply become more hammering of the same nail. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. I am sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am over-tired.

I will remove myself from this discussion for now and come back to it perhaps when I am refreshed.

At this point, it still feels to me like you are saying that a female homosexual can only be a lesbian. I will vehemently disagree with those limiting parameters. Good night.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Arwen

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

This makes sense to me. I think it is my own hangup with being told for so very long that I wan't a very good lesbian by some partners.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Originally Posted by Arwen

Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

[Apocalipstic]

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

[NJFemmie]

You being told you weren't a (so-called) 'good' lesbian - doesn't make you any less of a lesbian (yes, I know that you do not ID as such, but let's use this as a for instance), it seems to me that there were obvious incompatibilities, and the person who said this to you should have exercised tact and sensitivity instead of being hurtful and callous. Mean people do suck.

Arwen, I'm sorry that you went through that. And I am sure you know that on some level, what happened to you does not, by any means, constitute "lesbian sex" - but rather, you being taken advantage of by a very warped and fucked up individual, who most likely happened to be a lesbian.

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj