"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i'm not saying that i believe anything is obsolete. i am saying that we are evolving and so our language is evolving.

the language describing people will evolve as people themselves evolve. i do not quite understand the idea that language that does describe lesbians must evolve into something that does not describe lesbians. describe and define are different things.

if someone tells me who i am, and i know they are wrong, i will say so. i dont mean any offense in doing so. i simply dont want to be defined by another person, and i especially dont want to be defined in terms that exclude the truth of who i am. people who insist that i use their words and definitions to define myself are being disrespectful.

according to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who has sexual intercourse with women, i am not a lesbian. i have sexual intercourse with butches or transguys. what word does the dictionary demand i use to define myself?

dictionaries are references. they are not etched in stone. they change every year. words are added and eliminated because language evolves. everything evolves.

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

I am gobsmacked as to how you've come to these conclusions from what she said.

*shakes head*

hippie said: if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.

you said: Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?

Where on Earth do you get "I'm speaking for lesbians" from if "I" used the word lesbian to define "myself", "I" wouldn't feel that way either???

I just don't see the connection. She can speak for herself, of course, but I am not seeing how you get that from her response. Maybe it will be clearer in the morning.

Good night, all.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I am gobsmacked as to how you've come to these conclusions from what she said.

*shakes head*

hippie said: if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.

you said: Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?

Where on Earth do you get "I'm speaking for lesbians" from if "I" used the word lesbian to define "myself", "I" wouldn't feel that way either???

I just don't see the connection. She can speak for herself, of course, but I am not seeing how you get that from her response. Maybe it will be clearer in the morning.

Good night, all.

An entire post from a non lesbian about lesbians? Speaking about how lesbians feel and stating how she would find the term lesbian problematic IF SHE WAS ONE? You don't see it- maybe only a lesbian would understand...

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

An entire post from a non lesbian about lesbians? Speaking about how lesbians feel and stating how she would find the term lesbian problematic IF SHE WAS ONE? You don't see it- maybe only a lesbian would understand...

this is both unfair and unkind. if there's a problem with me, please PM me. i see no reason to be rude to Gemme.

i was not speaking for all lesbians nor was i telling anyone how to define themselves. i was participating in a conversation, one that has turned into something ugly.

in an exchange of ideas, there is no reason to feel threatened or hostile when people dont agree. there is no mandate for agreement in conversation. there is, however, the possibility for greater understanding of one another. i am glad i understand your point of view. i do not demand that you see mine. it would be nice if we could return to the discussion and leave the animosity out of things.

good night

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

this is both unfair and unkind. if there's a problem with me, please PM me. i see no reason to be rude to Gemme.

i was not speaking for all lesbians nor was i telling anyone how to define themselves. i was participating in a conversation, one that has turned into something ugly.

in an exchange of ideas, there is no reason to feel threatened or hostile when people dont agree. there is no mandate for agreement in conversation. there is, however, the possibility for greater understanding of one another. i am glad i understand your point of view. i do not demand that you see mine. it would be nice if we could return to the discussion and leave the animosity out of things.

good night

I'm sorry you feel I was rude to Gemme- that was certainly not my intention. I was simply clarifying.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Arwen

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

This makes sense to me. I think it is my own hangup with being told for so very long that I wan't a very good lesbian by some partners.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Originally Posted by Arwen

Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

[Apocalipstic]

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?

Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?

I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?
Not at all, I think it's great and consider them allies.
Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.
I don't!

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.
Not at all! That is simply not true.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?
Why are terms decribing lesbian/female homosexuals so problematic to non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian people? I just don't get it. And as I said a few posts back, I would never ever want someone to ID as lesbian/female homosexual if they were not one! Frankly I'm offended that you would read so much into my posts that is not there, and I wonder why...


I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.
As I posted earlier in the thread I would never want someone to ID as a lesbian who was not a lesbian/homosexual female. Ever. I accept and respect them as they are. Or did you skip that post?

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.
I never said otherwise so please don't make such unfair accusations.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode. Wow, very harsh.

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.

I repeated my point over and over because my actual point was very simple. It was not about how sex defines orientation, or certainly not what non-lesbians should call themselves, or any of the other issues raised by non-lesbians in response. And yes, I am getting a bit frazzled feeling forced to reiterate my simple point.