The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Parker

I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.

I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.

This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?

We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.

Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.

[Parker]

This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.


But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.

On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of and and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Parker

This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.


But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.

On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of and and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

I found this very interesting.

In real life, I cant think of anyone who used any pronoun but *she*. Then again, I dont remember there being another option either.

Online, things seem to be a little different.

Perhaps there is more exploration of identities, more experimentation to see if something else works better, more opportunity to be exposed to new and different ways of conceptualizing oneself, more variety to find the niche that defines the you you know yourself to be.

Perhaps there is some degree of peer pressure involved in our effort to fit in, be accepted, and attract the type of person we are looking to attract. We define, refine, sometimes even find ourselves in relation to others. So others have the potential to have a profound effect on us.

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

Interesting to think about.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?

I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

I have seen this as well - I have been told the same thing, re: expectations of being male id; and I have also been told that that is how some people tell the difference between a femme and a butch - the former is she and the latter is he.

I feel like that's bullshit, but what can you do - each person has to do right by and for themselves, not by and for me!

Personally, I've never been he/hy - on-line or irl.

[BullDog]

The idea that you call femmes she and butches he so you can tell them apart is such bullshit. What do you do when you have two friends named Terry, call one by a different name? No. It seems like a lot of anxiety- like heaven forbid a butch might be talking in chat and someone makes the fatal mistake of thinking it was a femme typing. Oh my. Talk about the worst crime in the world.

[BullDog]

On the positive side of things, despite all the online b.s. and some out in the real world too, being a butch woman who does embrace masculinity is very freeing and allows me to fully be myself. I do not in any way feel that masculinity is owned by men. I also see men embracing feminine aspects so women don't own femininity either. I am not bound to follow any rules or be a man or male to be the butch and masculine person that I am. I have my own role models and do not live to anyone's expectations other than my own. I do not fit in with the stereotype of woman, but I am just as much a woman- just a different type. Embracing masculinity is very natural to me and seeing myself as a woman makes me feel connected to women who have gone before me throughout history as well as now. I experience life as a woman. To disassociate from that reality for me personally would be a disservice to myself. So I am happy being me.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

Originally Posted by Parker

I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?

I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.

I was using masculine in a non-gender specific way.

[Nadeest]

I have tended to use' hy' here, for butches, as it seems to be the way that it works. I am perfectly comfortable using 'she', though. For me, it is whatever the person prefers. For some, the pronouns 'ze' and 'hir' work better, and I am fine with that, as well.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?

We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.

Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.

Whoops. I was busy writing my own missive while Kobi beat me to the punch with her far more succinct post.