The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[BullDog]

Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.

I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?

I don't think female identified butch is the flip side to male identified butch. I find female identified butch and woman identified butch to be rather meaningless terms, and I agree with Metro that they seem to work against us. I am not sure I see it as identity politics though. Most butches don't consider themselves to be male and don't wished to thought of as such. We have to speak up to make this known.

Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.

Online there's a lot of double speak. People will say that yes they believe butch women are just as butch as anyone else, just as masculine as anyone else, and then totally contradict themselves five minutes later with some other statement. It happens quite often. People of all gender identities do it.

It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.

[WickedFemme]

Can I just say, "I love you all" for being yourselves and not giving in to pressure, expectations, etc...
I am so attracted to those who are comfortable in themselves and with themselves... the confidence and perseverance is so attractive and appreciated.

I don't really have anything to add other than I totally support each and every one of you. I know it's a painful journey for all of us especially in our society and in our world where anything outside the 'norm' is perceived as less than. It's so difficult not to run around with rejection issues and project them onto each other especially after being rejected by our own Country and denied rights that every American enjoys 'if' they are heterosexual.

I have grown so much from reading everyone's thoughts and feelings and knowing some of you outside these websites for years... I have gained so much and appreciate everyone for all of their contributions...thank you for being uniquely 'you'.

I am femme and I strap it on yet I'm not 'butch'. so, lets please not equate sexual positions with gender ID's... has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

[Apocalipstic]

One of the things that strikes me from these posts is how much we as Femmes do to make things more difficult for Butches. (or easy)

The expectations we have.

The differences regionally or geographically in what is expected of a Butch by Femmes and vice versa. To open the door or not open the door. Who get the good parking space? who takes out the trash? cooks? kills the bugs and so forth.

I also must say that I agree strongly with Wicked Femme about sexual positions not equating gender ID. The expectation that the Butch is always the Top and always Dominant is not a realistic one.

On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.

Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?

There are things I see now in retrospect that I could have done better to be supportive of Butches I have dated...some who now have transitioned and some who have not. Things I should not have said, or worded differently.
Unrealistic expectations.....

Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.

[WickedFemme]

Apocalipstic, I agree so much with you. Had it not been for this community, I would have utterly remained in ignorance and continued to perpetuate a misogynistic sexist society even within the realm of a femme ID.

Because of people voicing about themselves, I have had to take a hard look at myself and evolve in my belief system(s), which I continue to do daily. I look back at where I stood ten years ago and the difference is amazing.. so, there is 'progress' happening no matter how small or large... it's happening because of all of us and beyond whether we agree or not.

I have really had to re-examine my expectations in regards to someone's ID and really get over myself in terms of putting myself into a 'box' of my perceived expectations. I no longer expect the 'butch' to pick up the check, hold the car door open, etc... If they do, it's nice but I try not to fall into that unrealistic expectation based upon some kind of social conditioning. The social conditioning is so incredibly difficult to overcome for each an every one of us. However, I think if we can make progress in terms of adjusting our own thoughts, attitudes and behaviors that eventually hopefully we'll reach some kind of acceptance not only of ourselves but the rest of our community members. It always starts with the "I" and hopefully translates into a "we"...

It's so liberating to let go of the old stuff and just 'be'... I am thoroughly enjoying myself more than I ever have and it just keeps getting better. I realize now that the posturing is nothing more than individual insecurities based upon preconceived notions and unrealistic expectations that we place not only on ourselves but project onto others.

I would really like to hear what more we can do to be supportive and more accepting.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.
<snip>

I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.

<snip>

If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.

<snip>

Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.

Metropolis

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.

I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?

<snip>

Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.

<snip>

It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.

First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.

Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.

Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?

<snip>

Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.

Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.

Again, I'm always hopeful.

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

[AtLast]

Thinking a lot (and have for years) about both female & male myths. Raising a male child in US society and wanting him to respect women as well as not be constrained by societal definitions of masculinity was difficult. He was not big on the usual sports except ballet (try to do ballet without being athletic) and had a dyke for a parent and grew up in a small, redneck town.

As a butch, some of the stereotypes of what is masculine make me nuts! These did as a heterosexual as well. I see a lot of these stereotypes perpetuated in our community. My female masculinity just does not fit with this at all. Nor do they for male-identified butches.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.

Oh I'm certain it will still be an issue, my choice not to use the online F/W ID'd I didn't think would flip things on their head, it really was more something Martina's thoughts sparked in me that I'd been itchy about for a long time... and just what's right for me.

My longer explanation was more to your concerns, to say it would not change online visibility to do so, also put out my reasoning behind what I was thinking (and maybe a little extra). Not how it was going to change the world... I'm plotting that tomorrow, well not change, more take over.



**********snip*******

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

Truth, and I'm sure the conversation will evolve to all those things. I think it ends up hitting on a lot of online issues because there are so many , and well it's here on top of it...

...and I think a lot of it ends up intertwined. Partially why I spoke about aligning my "identity" back to what it always has been real world, and dropping the online ID qualifiers that I felt were tangling me up and seemingly differentiating.





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Still mulling you're "Round 2" post...


Back to you regularly scheduled program.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.




First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.

Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.




Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.

Again, I'm always hopeful.

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.

I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.

I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

My nephew calls Cynthia the "girl who looks like a boy". He loves her. When we go see them he runs in with his arms full of nerf guns and says "choose your weapon!". I get more of "wow Aunt Jenny, you aren't very good at video games...."

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I


I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

These points hit the spot, Bully!!!

It is about sexism... it is not about gender!!! Gender is fluid and frankly, I am grateful that within my lifetime, gender ignorance is being fought. Not just for the TG/I, all Butches, Femmes.... all of us here, but for every human being. Sexism is the culprit I want to see erradicated.

Yes, when I am simply a human being among the masses, I am a happy camper! Just me, strong, female masculine woman living my life, being myself!

Yet, I do run into (as we all do) unique circumstances as a consequence of my female masculinity. I'm not as sensitive to much of this as I once was, but, there are times it just plain sux! I hate it that just in terms of safety, I will not take public transportaion when going to events/activities in which I am putting on the butch like wearing a tie or tux. And that i do a mental inventory about getting anything I need at the store before I get dressed to go, so I don't have to go into a store... dappered-up.[/But the fact of the matter is, my rapid transit route intersects with a city in which a butch was kidnapped and gang raped and I'm not taking chances. Having had quite a few instances in my life in which I was physically attacked (or just about to be) because of how I look, does influence my behavior and choices. And I live 25 minutes from SF! I have been harassed on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) within the last few years. Verbal abuse is one thing... being beaten or raped is quite another!