"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.

Great post Isadora. Perhaps the person making the point about masculine being placed in higher regard than the feminine might have a point.

Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first!

[Jett]

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

And I got it, too, that, when You put the term in "quotes", that COULD have been interpreted as Your word......

[BullDog]

I'm just trying to follow the conversation.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Diva

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

...

You would be correct, as far as I was concerned, it was directed at everyone...

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

You referenced Some Thread, on Some Other site.
I presume BF.com
That was not what was said, on BF.com, using that word or any other word
I have no issue with some general Thread, discussing whether or not Butch & Femme, are antiquated Terms, though why one would think they were, I don't know.
I do object to trashing of and falsely representing, the "other" site.
Call me old fashioned and antiquated, but I object to falsehoods.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.
The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

[Duchess]

I have never put much energy into thinking about other people's choices unless they directly affect me. I think growing up in a multicultural home taught me tolerance for diversity as I exited the womb.

Femme fits perfectly for me because the term is a HUGE umbrella. There are so many layers to me, I can't simply identify as Transensual Femme, Stone Femme, etc....Being Femme or Butch is complex. There's no one way to do it.

If this ideaology doesn't work for the next person that's cool, because there's only one Duchess (thank God) and there's only one you. The important thing is to follow your instinct and not stay within the lines for definition's sake.


Duchess

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by cybersuebee

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


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This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


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This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

I'm confused. I don't understand what the hub-bub is over the word.
(yes, I said hub-bub).