"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

Blue_Daddy-O · 12-26-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Blue Vegan --

Your post was reported and I have to say that upon review, I don't care for what appears to be your "tone". It appears to be sarcastic, rude and condescending.

If it is being misread, please take a moment to explain further here in the thread.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Lesbian Moderator,

June

Yes, I am being completely misread! No doubt, by those who don't know me or my sense of humor. I am very easy to read in person and have a big heart (and a playful heart too) and never, and I can say never, have the misreads and misunderstandings live that I have had in this thread. When I am finally able to completely respond to post in here, I think much of that will be cleared up. Granted those who feel just as strong about their opinions as I do mine, we may have to come to a place of agreeing to disagree. Even though we disagree with each other doesn't mean we can't share a laugh and still be friends. I can be a very serious person and still like to laugh and make others laugh, even when being serious, it cuts the tension. There is no room for hate, at least not in my world and I wish others felt the same way!

Anyone who knows me, knows how much I truly love ALL Lesbians, I have been dating a Lesbian Femme for the last 5 months, I have ex-girlfriends over the last 20 years who are Lesbians, many many friends who I love and adore who are Lesbians and I was a Lesbian for 10 years. Sometimes my Mom is a Lesbian Femme, when she's not idenifying as Bi-sexual, LoL. I don't always agree with Lesbians and their POVs, hence the discussion in this thread.

I am a very passionate and outspoken person, in person as well as online. I also take very seriously when others wrongly judge and mistreat others. It is very upsetting for me to watch and I will be responding to that when I return.

Darth Denkay · 12-26-2009, 02:21 PM

Bulldog,

You got me. I am one of those who has identified as masculine butch. In my mind what I was trying to get across is that - gender-wise - I don't identify as male or female, man or woman. I used masculine thinking it was a useful alternative to male or female, but as you point out, it really isn't. Female id'd butches identify as masculine, male id'd butches identify as masculine - I think it is probably safe to say that most, if not all butches identify with masculinity. So to call myself a masculine identified butch is basically redundant.

I guess I was trying to create a category so that I wouldn't have to identify myself by saying what I'm not (not man or woman) because as we know that can come across as stigmatizing those identities. I'm female in the biological sense, but I don't feel like I fit into either gender category. I guess this is one instance when, if I need to qualify myself in terms of gendered male and female, I'll have to go with the 'not' identifiers. So from now on, I will never call myself a masculine butch; masculine gives you no additional information beyond butch.

You rock Bulldog!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

BullDog · 12-26-2009, 03:23 PM

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian.

Darth Denkay · 12-26-2009, 07:31 PM

Hey Bulldog,

I really appreciate this dialogue.

Originally I identified only as butch - for me that was my gender that existed outside of male and female. As I saw other butches identifying as male or female, I figured I should use a qualifier too - since neither male or female fit comfortably. But you know what - I am butch, plain and simple. I get that for some butches either male or female resonates - but for me I'm just a good old butch.

You also make a really good point about women in general being masculine, regardless of sexual orientation. My mom, who as far as I know is straight, looks pretty masculine. She doesn't attempt to embrace femininity or masculinity, she is just herself, which happens to be an individual with a nice blend of masculine and feminine. I bet if you asked her if she identified as masculine or feminine, she'd say neither. She expresses what I would call her innate masculinity without any conscious effort. If I had to identify her I'd say masculine straight female, (although, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'straight' part isn't accurate).

Finally, I'm glad that you mention that female-identified butch is a little redundant too. At least as I understand the terms. Because I use male and female to signify physical sex, for me it feels unnecessary to point out that I am physically female. Now, I've never mentioned this before because I didn't want to come across as invalidating those who do embrace female-identified butch, but for me, butch is sufficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian.

Dragonfly · 12-26-2009, 10:08 PM

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

friskyfemme · 12-27-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June

Amelia (Mel)

I loved that entire post and find it to be very true here in Portland as well. Younger folks do seem a lot more fluid in their identities and Gender presentations. I love that.

"Wasn't that what we were fighting for?"

Thank you for sharing that story.

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me

.

Jett · 12-27-2009, 02:21 PM

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

Toughy · 12-28-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskyfemme

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me

.

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

12-26-2009, 03:23 PM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,656 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too. I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified. Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are. Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

12-26-2009, 10:08 PM	#5
Dragonfly Member How Do You Identify?: Queersexual Female Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: smiling real big Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: My Own House Illinois Posts: 330 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 871 Thanked 346 Times in 151 Posts Rep Power: 645438	I asked my Teenage Daughter She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically. I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom. SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area? And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally. __________________ Stay Gold.

12-27-2009, 02:21 PM	#7
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too: Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining. The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to. I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. insert sarcastic look). Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive. I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy. actually a lot more fun in real life Metro __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus Last edited by Jett; 12-27-2009 at 02:24 PM.